this post was submitted on 13 Jul 2023
9 points (58.5% liked)
World News
32102 readers
601 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Sure sounds like you don't understand what colonialism is to me.
I understand it quite well which is why I can identify when people like you are promoting it. If you had a rebuttal or explanation you would have stated it rather than resorting to a logical fallacy in your reply.
You keep saying that you do, but clearly you don't. Alternatively, you don't understand the history of the province, and the civil war in China. In either case, what you're saying is deeply ignorant.
Another comment with zero substance.
You claiming that forcibly taking over control of another's land isn't "colonialism" is like saying "enhanced interrogation" isn't torture.
Funny how you can keep replying about what others "don't understand," but you can't put together an actual defense of your position. It's almost as if you know I'm 100% accurate, so you'd rather spin the discussion away from your indefensible position with insults and fallacies.
Taiwan is literally part of China as recognized by UN. The actual colonialism happening in Taiwan is what US has been doing there since WW2. I can't decide whether you're just woefully ignorant or just a liar.
So the US is still colonizing Taiwan? How did they even "colonize" Taiwan?
Go read up on some history and learn a bit about history of what US has been doing in Taiwan instead of making a 🤡 of yourself in public.
So no source?
The fact that you can't even figure out how to google basic publicly available information explains quite a bit about your comment history.
I know you cant back up your claims. You are just here to stir up drama.
I see you've made a self referential comment.
still no source.
It's pretty common troll tactic to claim to want information on something that's well documented. What specifically do you want a source regarding, how US poured millions into Taiwanese media via orgs like NED, or how US grooms DPP politicians, or how US based orgs help write school curriculum?
In the African high speed rail thread, you required citations of others who had opinions you didn't like.
You're doing it here, too. But you won't put in the effort you expect of others.
And you decry hypocrisy.
You are becoming a known agitator and troll. That's never good for a cause you care about. Good work.
In the African high speed rail thread, I pointed out that the conjecture that the rail wouldn't be cost effective was made up. Nothing in the article I submitted suggested that would be the case. So, if the person was claiming that, I was asking on what basis they were claiming it.
What I'm stating about US interference in Taiwan i on the other hand a well documented fact.
Once again, the only agitator and a troll here is the one who's following me around and making personal attacks trying to smear me while adding nothing at all to the discussion. Do better.
You're changing the topic. You demanded citations for an assertion. Felt it was fair to do so. You clearly continue to do so.
When others ask you, you tell them to Google it. Even just a little more effort would be helpful - a good site for reference, author, something...
In the other thread I see your links. Thank you. Substance is good. I'll take a look and see what's up.
That so many people "follow you around" is you misreading that you're pissing off (potential) allies. They're in those communities for a reason.
Be better. No one is "stalking me." And it's not because I hold a lot of popular opinions (some are, some aren't). Why are you being "stalked" for real? It's not the opinion - it is the presentation.
If you were confident and mature, you wouldn't be glib and dismissive, you'd present clearly, with some empathy and rapport building, and you'd find some space for discussion.
Others are also bringing up your complete lack of maturity in the Taiwan thread. Glib is how you galvanize people into an opposing position. Stop being glib.
I'm not changing any topic here, I'm simply explaining why you're making a false equivalence. Meanwhile, there aren't many people following me around, there's literally three of you.
And the reason I call you out on following me around isn't because you disagree with my views, but because you make personal attacks and don't actually make any arguments of your own. You keep doing this psychoanalysis of me, telling me that I'm not confident, calling me a troll and so on. Nowhere do you say anything of substance.
If you want people to take you seriously then maybe consider making a reasoned argument instead of personal attacks. Just a thought.
This post, by your definition, has no content.
Do you see the hypocrisy?
So, what you're saying is that I should just stop engaging with your trolling. That's probably a good advice actually.
LOL. I'm not trolling, I'm just distracting one.
Adorable that's what you think you're doing, but anybody who looks at your comment history knows different.
Checking yours is how people quickly identify the tankie who hates people for their country of origin.
Running around calling people who disagree with your tankies when you don't have anything of substance to say really highlights the quality of your intellect. In all our discussions, you've only managed to produce a single intelligible comment when you were forced to admit that US is an oligarchic shithole that's not actually exporting democracy around the world. I don't hate people for their country of origin, I hate the despotic global empire that your country built and what it's done to the world.
You're daft. I wasn't forced to admit that the US has an oligarchy and you didn't add one bit of persuasion to my conclusion. I've been there for years.
You create an image of the people you talk with and then argue with that image.
There are two things wrong with that. You don't see the person. And you're arguing instead of anything useful. Both track back to an unnecessary and unhealthy predilection to combativeness.
You look for fault in others. You look for reasons to feel or be righteous. You look for all this stuff. And sometimes, you find it where it isn't.
Your style is broken. Your approach is broken. You vision of who you speak with is broken. You've forgotten that with very rare exception, all posters are people.
You act like you're the sole arbiter of a person's worth and that that always tracks to being on the "right side" of issues you exclusively care about. It's immature and, honestly, intellectually lazy.
And if the topic of persuasion or decency doesn't seem substantive to you, then you really need to reflect on why that's your response.
Let's add: you responded quickly to the tankie part. What say you about hating people for their country of origin? Because you've shown active disdain as soon as you think you know they're from places.
The one who is actually daft is the guy who claimed that US is helping Taiwan become democratic while apparently being fully aware of the fact that US itself isn't.
Nah, I read the imbecilic comments you write and reply to their content.
You're just projecting here. I address what people are saying, and you consistently produce drivel in pretty much every one of your replies. You practically never engage with the subject, you just do name calling and character attacks. That's literally all you do.
Why do you think I care what you think about my style. You're not a person I respect or whose opinions I value. To me you're just a troll following me around producing background noise.
Respect is earned. If you want people to take you seriously then make actual arguments to support whatever point you want to make instead of spending your time trying to psychoanalyze people and make personal attacks while whinging about not being respected. It's frankly pathetic.
That's completely and utterly false. It's just the caricature you've created of me. I don't hate people based on their country of origin at all. There are plenty of people I respect in the west, you just don't happen to be one of them. What I have disdain for are shills for the burger empire such as yourself.
See... that's the thing. I never said...
You're off your rocker. I'm tired of being completely misrepresent while you say I said things I didn't.
And that, is how I know you hate. You do it persistently.
Your replies in the branch are as off topic as my own. And you know it. No high ground left.
I'll add: I'm not that worked up about whether I'm respected. It's that you throw your disrepect around potential and quasi-allies for not being pure enough. I've stated this clearly multiple times.
To add further: posting a slew of links criticizing the US for trying yo help spread Democracy when your aspersions go far further... isn't the kind of critical thinking you present it to be.
It's like me saying soviet Russia wanted more communism in the world. It's obvious.
The difference is that you're the one who sealions in to my threads and starts making personal attacks. I just reply to your smears, but you're the one who always initiates. And nowhere have I made any purity tests for anyone, that's just a thing you made up. But I'm sure you're going to claim I've somehow misrepresented you once again.
🤡
Come on now. You attack without much provocation at all. But there's no hate or purity tests?
That's a damn lie.
What you've missed (clearly) in a lot of this is I could be an ally on some topics but you can't stop lashing out in some "righteous" crusade.
If persuasion were a battlefield, you'd be killing your own.
Show me a single example where I sealion into your posts and start attacking you.
What you've missed clearly is that your tactic of attacking people who disagree with your and namecalling doesn't make your an appealing ally for anyone. Maybe you should take your own advice, do some self reflection and stop lashing out at people while accusing others of being mean to you. Just a thought.
I've been using lemmy for around 4 years now, and we've had pleasant and constructive discussion here that whole time. Then a bunch of redditors showed up and started flinging feces.
Ah. The source of your anger.
The local Overton window shifted. You'd found a bubble you liked and now it's different and more perspectives are flooding in. Not all perspectives are informed, but you are being credibly challenged now.
The big fish in a small pond finds itself in a different body of water.
I'm not insulting people until very recently and it's only you. You cast a wide net with your anger and it's helping no one. And it hurts your cause.
I never said you sealion me. Not once. You keep seeing things as said that aren't. And then you complain about reading comprehension of your sparring partners.
It's shameful. And I'm not using that lightly. You act shamefully. It's fucking embarrassing the way you're trying to advance ideas by insulting people.
Other people are here. Adapt.
If we need to have a thread about maladaptive rhetoric so you cam deem my discussion on topic I'll point out that posting a single clown emoji or vomit one is not topical, either. It only further lowers discourse and makes you into an easily discarded clown.
And I doubt you want that.
No, my complaint isn't about the Overton window shifting. In fact, I've repeatedly explained to you what my actual complaint is which you continue to ignore while making straw man arguments.
My complaint, once again is about people such as yourself sealioning into threads to make personal attacks when you read something you disagree with. I've explicitly said that I welcome disagreement and genuine discussion that's respectful and informed. And I've asked you repeatedly to consider doing that if you're not happy with the type replies you're seeing when you start trolling.
You never said I sealion you, but you keep trying to make some sort of equivalence between you jumping in to start fights and me reacting in kind. In other words, treat others the way you want to be treated or grow a thicker skin.
The only thing that's shameful here is what you're doing and your utter lack of self awareness.
I have no intention to adapting to reddit style trolling where people drown out meaningful discussion with namecalling and personal attacks. Again, respect is earned, and if you want to have a respectful discussion then engage with people respectfully. It's not a hard concept.
I'm not jumping in to start fights. I jump in to ask why you're doing it.
There's a difference. Clown faces (a pattern,, not an instance), vomit emoji... all that is is you doing something for your feels and to feel better than. They do exactly zero for anything a normal, mature peraon would hope to generate.
You say you want meaningful exchange and you doggedly defend yourself as you bring the discourse down to single emoji and knee-jerk judgments.
You're creating an unhelpful dynamic. Being likeable helps. Being right is "logically" enough. For persuasion, it is a distant second on a good day.
Being more likeable and less glib can help. Or, You're not here to help. You're here to feel better than. Your choice and you get to choose, but be consistent. If it's the later, don't criticize it in others, please.
Let's go one further and I'll ask other than when I told you themat you required evidence and you were being a hypocrite, when did I demand evidence over and over? Or do you not know what sealioning is?
I'm not demanding evidence. I'm asking why you're so darn incivil to so many people. You look like an unsympathetic Don Quixote and it helps none of your points.
And if you're not here to persuade, why post so many of a specific kind of article.
Again. I don't follow you around. I'm in certain communities for a reason. And then you shit all over them.
It's daft, touched-in-the-head kind of behavior.
It's weird that you keep asking why I reply to people in kind when I've explicitly explained why repeatedly. I get offended when people sealion into my posts and make personal attacks against me. There's no great mystery here.
I don't feel the need to act mature or dignified with people I consider to be assholes. When somebody slides into my threads to call me a tankie, I have zero respect for that person. It's that simple. I'm not the one creating the unhelpful dynamic, I just respond in kind to people who attack me because they don't like the content of what I say.
Being more likeable and less glib can help, but none of us are perfect. My personal character flaw is that I don't take it well when people attack me in this way.
I'm here to persuade people who are willing to have a civil discussion engaging with the topic of the post. You'll find that I'm always civil talking to people who are civil in kind regardless of whether I agree with them or not.
So, when you see me post in certain communities you frequent, and you have a differing opinion then feel free to explain what you disagree on and have a discussion about it. Be the change you want to see in the world and all that.
You need to Google "sea lion troll."
You're not using the term correctly. Or keep doing it wrong, up to you.
I understand that you've answered that you get to decide if a person is worthy of respect or dignity or decency. I find it highly ironic since you seem to exist on a part of the spectrum that would want those things for (almost?) everyone. That may not be true, but you seem inclined to push socialist ideas. I'm very open to that, personally. Many Americans are; the culture wars are used to distract and divide and it works.
If I've persisted in my question on why you become knee-jerk incivil, it's because the answers so far have landed as "because." Your most recent response hits more authentically and I appreciate it. I've sparred with trolls. I've sparred with those who genuinely disagree for good (and bad) reasons. Authentic, mature conversation appeals to me.
Dropping to name calling (emojis) based on the first reply on a thread lowers discourse. I'll stop here. I just wish that shit didn't happen so much.
I'm not your opponent but you sure set out that way when you correctly determined I'm in and from the US. The combativeness was not deserved, it was off-putting and I am much less likely to want to engage. Shrug.
It basically comes down to the paradox of tolerance. I don't think it's worth trying to have an actual discussion when people are trolling me which simply sucks up my time and validates what they're doing.
Again, I didn't determine you're my opponent based on the fact that you're from US. That seemed to be the case base on the derogatory personal attacks you made against me, such as calling me a tankie. That was off-putting to me, and hence why I didn't see any point in trying to have a mature discussion. I'm perfectly happy to change my mind if you're willing to have civil discourse as we're having now.
Nope. Stop there.
You keep telling other people to do the research and make an argument to you. But you will not do it yourself.
It's a troll move and you have to stop. All you are doing is alienating people. I've begun to wonder if that's what you're here to do.
I provide sources for what I say all the time when I say something that's not necessarily obvious. In this particular case, I'm stating a well documented fact that anybody can google. The troll move here is to claim that I said something controversial, demand evidence, and then to make personal smear attacks against me. Which is what you and your buddy are doing.
That said, here are some materials that you will never bother reading, but might help other people reading the thread understand who the actual troll here is.
US Political Capture of Taiwan
Sunflower Movement Leader Lin Fei-fan’s Associations with the US NED
Democratic Progressive Party (DPP)’s regular Reporting to AIT
US interference in Taiwan politics and media is very well documented. US has poured countless millions into shaping the opinions of the people in Taiwan through orgs like NED, it directly grooms US politicians such as Tsai Ing-Wen, and that's literally what colonialism and cultural hegemony are.
These links (clicked and read) are not all that salacious.
Where there are like-minded people, we like to help. If we can get more like-minded people, that's better.
If it was for free market capitalism, I'd have an issue with our contribution. A lot of this is about the spread of democracy. I don't take issue with that.
Self-determination (including the rejection of democracy) seems fundamental to me. Overall, however, I think socialist democracies make the most sense. Beneficent dictatorships seem like a they're one step away from not being beneficial. Slippery slope thing.
That is such an absurd statement to make. To understand how absurd what you're saying is replace Taiwan with Texas or Hawaii and replace US with Russia or China. Then tell me with a straight face that US would allow this level of interference in a US state where Russia or China would groom politicians, sponsor movements via their state orgs, and send weapons there. Last I checked US liberals are still losing their minds over the fact that a Russian oligarch bought a few 100k worth of Fb ads during an election campaign. What these links show is political interference on an incredible scale, and the kind US would never tolerate in a million years.
And don't pretend that this is about spreading democracy, it's about spreading US hegemony. US doesn't even have democracy at home, how can it possibly spread it anywhere else:
Having a foreign power take over and run your government isn't what self determination is. Self determination fundamentally starts with having sovereignty, and having a foreign power drive your political system is literally the opposite of that.
I have no disagreement with calling our system an oligarchy. It's part of why I'm pro-socialism.
Money isn't the only thing driving the oligarchy, but it's way up there on my list.
Profound, immeasurable wealth is a blight and a hallmark of poor mental health.
Well that's something we can agree on. Politics of any society that allows mass wealth inequality will end up being captured by those who have the wealth. The only way to have a just society is by limiting inequality. And in my view, Americans should not run around the world and interfere in other countries pretending to do it for some grand standing purposes like spreading democracy while their own society is profoundly sick. Fix yourselves and stop playing world police. Let other countries deal with their own problems, and we'll all be in a better place.
Is this the same UN that recognized Palestinian territory as Israeli?
Imagine trying to paint parallels between Taiwan and Palestine. 🤦