this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2024
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[–] assyrian@hexbear.net 27 points 8 months ago (3 children)

hot take: I think the view people on here have - that American politicians are just zionists in a vacuum and AIPAC/other lobbies have nothing to do with it is really reductive. the situation would be infinitely better if AIPAC/similar lobbies didn't exist. sure, some Americans are ideological zionists (probably nowhere close to a majority) but there's a reason 100% of politicians are zionists.

[–] mkultrawide@hexbear.net 29 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Obviously, American politics would be better in at least some ways if the Israel lobby didn't exist. However, zionism doesn't have support in the US just because AIPAC/J Street/DMFI dump a bunch of money into races. If all it took to create that was money, Americans would be singing the praises of the Gulf monarchies and Azerbaijan.

AIPAC isn't just going out and forcing politicans to be pro-zionist. They are going out and finding politicans who are already that way and giving them money. Amplifying something that already exists is different from creating it from nothing. The argument that America is "under the control of the Israel lobby" hinges on the idea that supporting Israel "isn't in America's best interests". But what is in America's best interests is mostly subjective. For millions of Americans, and a lot of US politicians and bureaucrats, support of Israel provides a lot of important benefits to the US, beyond any purely ideological commitment to zionism, that have outweighed the costs of supporting it.

[–] assyrian@hexbear.net 17 points 8 months ago (1 children)

AIPAC isn't just going out and forcing politicans to be pro-zionist.

in a way, they do though. they have insane influence over elections to the point where they can dump millions of dollars into random races to make sure their candidate wins. anyone running for office knows they can't criticize Israel or they'll get annihilated by the lobby, so it's just easier to say "Israel has a right to defend itself" a bunch of times. it's documented that there are politicians who never really say anything about israel during their campaign trail, then when they win, they get flown to israel, handed a list of talking points, etc.

[–] mkultrawide@hexbear.net 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

If AIPAC was what is primarily responsible for pro-Israel positions among US politicians, then Israel would have been more broadly unpopular among the US public, who do not receive AIPAC campaign donations. Sure, there are definitely politicians who will say whatever they think they need to say, but I would also remind you that most politicians, especially at the federal level, are groomed/picked ahead of time by the parties. There are layers and layers of networks (city/county/state parties, NGOs, media groups, etc) within the two parties that function to filter out the "wrong people" from political power, and all of that happens before AIPAC ever even writes them a check. There are lots of little college-aged political freaks who dream of holding office, don't get a drop of AIPAC money, and are not only happy to but feel morally compelled to support Israel. Zionism is embedded in American culture, it's not imported by AIPAC. One of the little Young Republican freaks at your college shouting how Israel should nuke Gaza today is tomorrow's congressman from Ft. Lauderdale.

[–] assyrian@hexbear.net 11 points 8 months ago (2 children)

If AIPAC was what is responsible for pro-Israel positions among US politicians, then Israel would have been more broadly unpopular among the US public, who do not receive AIPAC campaign donations.

the public's support for israel doesn't exist in a vacuum. this is what AIPAC is for - when 100% of politicians are zionists, when 100% of the media are zionists, of course there's a segment of the public that are zionists too. at the same time, like I said, I doubt even a majority of the public are zionists whereas 100% of politicians are. what else would explain this? they offered a guy in Michigan $20 million to run against Rashida Tlaib for her mild criticism of israel. and this is just what we know about. what percentage of elections are straight up just bought by AIPAC? how many times did someone critical of zionism lose only because of the lobby funding their opponent?

I really don't understand this reticence to admit that these lobbies play a major, outsize role in our politics. there's a reason they exist and do what they do, \ otherwise what's the point? if all americans are just organically zionists, why do any of these organizations exist?

[–] mkultrawide@hexbear.net 9 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I haven't anywhere said that AIPAC doesn't play a big role in politics. My original comment was criticizing liberals who think that AIPAC is the root cause of support for zionism in America, and that support would sublimate if it disappeared. I am arguing that American support for zionism is the base and AIPAC is the superstructure. You seem to be arguing the opposite, but my apologies if I am misinterpreting. In my mind, the argument that AIPAC is what drives support for zionism in America is like arguing that Ansar Allah or Hezbollah are just Iranian puppets, instead of organic movements/parties within their society that Iran supports.

, I doubt even a majority of the public are zionists

As an American who has lived in both the bluest of blue and reddest of red states, that is not my experience.

[–] Commiejones@hexbear.net 4 points 8 months ago

I doubt even a majority of the public are zionists whereas 100% of politicians are.

The majority of Americans are apolitical/politically illiterate and even more are unconcerned with geo-politics.

Its like looking for a vegan butcher. Just because vegans exist as a percentage of the population you can't expect them to be represented in that percentage of all occupations.

AIPAC is just a special interest under the Military Industrial Complex Lobby. They are more vocal than most and they get more media time but their influence is overstated in comparison to the arms manufactures.

Israel is a bipartisan American imperialist project supporting it is like supporting the troops. Support for American imperialism is a requirement for being elected in America. There are a few exceptions and they are usually only in word and not in deed.

[–] Maoo@hexbear.net 15 points 8 months ago

AIPAC is basically just the US' funding for Israel finding its way back to help sustain more funding. It's an effect and cause of the cycle but is the lesser partner to imperial interests. If capital were threatened by the existence of the Zionist entity the cycle would change overnight.

[–] What_Religion_R_They@hexbear.net 6 points 8 months ago

Kind of like a mass line