this post was submitted on 13 Jan 2024

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1281

Cloudflare Employee records her final meeting where HR tries to fire her (ody.sh)

submitted 10 months ago by scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech to c/videos@lemmy.world

400 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I can’t give more approval for this woman, she handled everything so well.

The backstory is that Cloudflare overhired and wanted to reduce headcount, rightsize, whatever terrible HR wording you choose. Instead of admitting that this was a layoff, which would grant her things like severance and unemployment - they tried to tell her that her performance was lacking.

And for most of us (myself included) we would angrily accept it and trash the company online. Not her, she goes directly against them. It of course doesn’t go anywhere because HR is a bunch of robots with no emotions that just parrot what papa company tells them to, but she still says what all of us wish we did.

(Warning, if you've ever been laid off this is a bit enraging and can bring up some feelings)

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[+] Bonehead@kbin.social -28 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

Ok, I understand the point of recording this but...she is very young, and likely this is her first time being laid off. I know, it's shocking. Except for me, who had to console the person that came to get me to be laid off who was much more upset than I was, but I digress.

Here's the thing. You're being laid off. There is nothing you can say or do to change that. The people doing the firing were likely brought in specifically for that job, and they know nothing more than what management has told them. Your manager had absolutely no say in the matter, this decision was made 3 levels higher than them. Your manager likely didn't even know until about an hour before you are let go. I know you're upset, I know you're frustrated, I know you're likely not thinking straight. But it's happening, whether you like it or not. You can ask why you're being let go, but they can't tell you what they don't know. And even worse, they've had this exact same conversation at least 50 times that day. The first instinct is to make it awkward and difficult for them, but this is their job and they are use to it.

Confirm your information. Make sure you can follow up on next steps and get your employment insurance claim started immediately. If you can, make sure you can still contact your actual manager for a reference afterwards. Usually you can find out more about what really happened at the same time. Just get as much information as you can about what they will provide you for the aftermath. Then once you get off the call....scream. Cry. Jump up and down with joy, if that's how you feel. Just let it out. You're going to be feeling a lot of emotion, so just let it out. Go home, explain what happened to your family of you have one. Let them scream and cry if they have to. And then try to sleep.

The next morning will feel weird not having to get up to go to work. Enjoy it. Take the first week to yourself. Get your employment insurance claim going and all the paperwork for that. But take time to decompress so you can be ready for the next move. Work on some of those home projects you've been putting off because you were too busy with your job. Take time to spend with family. Just don't worry about finding a job yet. The emotions from the last job will still be raw, so you don't want to bring that to an interview. Let yourself adjust to the new routine before you dive headfirst into a job search. When you're ready to start your job search, you don't want those emotions clouding your judgement and avoiding jobs that you think are too close to your old job. A little distance will help to put things into perspective.

And remember, it's not the end of the world. You'll find another job. You just need to be open to the possibilities. But you can't do that of you're still pissed off to the eyeballs. Take the time to let it go and truly move on.

[–] ExploratrixLunae@kbin.social 49 points 10 months ago (1 children)

All of your advice is sound enough, but the point of this video was more to demonstrate that Cloudflare (and absolutely other companies) are specifically avoiding "layoff" language in favor of firings based on "performance" to avoid paying these people even the paltry amount in unemployment they would receive. It's not just that they're being laid off.

[+] Bonehead@kbin.social -13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The excuse might be "performance", but they are being fired without cause officially. They can still apply for employment insurance. This is just standard procedure. Being fired with cause opens them up to lawsuits, so most companies avoid that whenever possible. Especially when they are firing multiple people like this.

[–] ShoeboxKiller@lemm.ee 29 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Being fired without cause means an employee is being let go, but not because of any serious workplace misconduct. Conversely, being fired with cause means the employee committed a serious breach of conduct in their workplace, which led to their termination.

Citing performance is citing cause. You’re wrong and others are right in that citing performance is an attempt to demonstrate cause to avoid severance and/or unemployment. A “layoff” is without cause and entitles them to those benefits.

[+] Bonehead@kbin.social -10 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Again, it doesn't matter what they tell you. It only matters what they report to the government. If it's with cause and you have proof they are lying, you can sue for wrongful dismissal. But they won't do that. They will report it as without cause, because that's just easier. They don't owe her severance because she was only there for 4 months, but she will qualify for at least some employment insurance.

[–] ShoeboxKiller@lemm.ee 20 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Again, it doesn't matter what they tell you.

Wrong again. It very much matters what they tell you because by law they’re not required to tell you anything. They can terminate employment for no reason. Giving a reason is citing cause.

The employer might not fight an unemployment claim but if, for example, they cited performance in the termination meeting and then the employee finds out the employer had made age discriminatory comments, kind of like you did, about them, there’s grounds for wrongful termination.

You seem intent on ignoring the fact that the conversation during a termination from the employee perspective is crucial because companies can, and do, lie to protect themselves.

There’s also special conditions and requirements that go along with a reduction in force (layoffs due to overstaffing) that companies try to sidestep by listing a different reason for the termination.

[–] Bonehead@kbin.social -4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Pointing out the truth is not "age discrimination". It's obvious that she is very upset in the video, and that this is probably the first time she's been in this situation. It's also obvious that the manager and HR person have gone through this conversation many times already. There is nothing that they could say that would satisfy her. The HR person literally says that. They are giving her the response they were told to give her. Yes, its bullshit, but it doesn't matter until it's written down. This video isn't the "gotcha" that she thinks it is. Without the video, it's her word against written documentation. And of course the company is going to protect themselves, that's why they won't report it as with cause. All this video did was show her inexperience. Unfortunately we'll never see the update where she tells us what they reported on the written documents.

[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Hmm, but the HR people said they didn't have any documentation, and if she hasn't had a bad performance review prior to this meeting then there isn't a paper trail showing poor performance.

If they generate some documentation after this meeting that shows poor performance, wouldn't that kind of be a smoking gun for a fraud case? Because it seems pretty clear that the intent is to defraud her of unemployment benefits by claiming that she was fired with cause.

[–] Bonehead@kbin.social -3 points 10 months ago

Yes, if they do that. And then she'll have more evidence for a wrongful dismissal lawsuit. But they won't. They'll report that she was fired without cause. Speculating on the official cause does nothing but allow people to feel upset about it.

[–] tweeks@feddit.nl 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

The point is, laying all these people off with performance as reason protects Cloudflare in not having to pay extra (which would be legally needed if the employee was not at fault).

This is probably not any kind of proof she can use, but it does make people aware of how Cloudflare operates.

It's understandable companies have to fire people and as an employee you'd probably do best to accept the harsh reality of a business. But if they really communicate fake causes with lay-offs (not only hurting the employee mentally, but also financially bypassing rightful compensation by law), this should be known by the public.

To be fair though, we cannot confirm her statements to be true either. But I think it's an interesting share nonetheless.

[–] Bonehead@kbin.social -3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The point is that is still comes down to what's written on official documents. Yes, what they told her is bullshit and can have a negative mental health effect. But her mental health is not their responsibility. The two people telling her that she was being let go are simply relaying exactly what they are told to by upper management.

The video was smart to record, just in case. But publishing it was just for other people to feel rage. This is have absolutely no effect on Cloudflare. A few less people may apply, but there is no shortage of people looking for jobs right now. With all the layoffs happening at every company, it's almost like the Dot Com Bust again. I got through it and stayed in IT for another 16 years. She will get through this too.

[–] novamdomum@kbin.social 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"This is have absolutely no effect on Cloudflare."

It appears to have gotten the CEO worried enough about brand damage that he felt he had to post some bullshit.

"Matthew Prince, the CEO and co-founder of the technology company, has reacted. “We fired ~40 sales people out of over 1,500 in our go-to market org. That's a normal quarter. When we're doing performance management right, we can often tell within 3 months or less of a sales hire, even during the holidays, whether they're going to be successful or not. Sadly, we don't hire perfectly. We try to fire perfectly,” Prince wrote on X, formerly Twitter.

Acknowledging that they were “far from perfect” in this case, Mr Prince said, “The video is painful for me to watch. Managers should always be involved. HR should be involved, but it shouldn't be outsourced to them, No employee should ever actually be surprised they weren't performing. We don't always get it right.”

More here..

[–] Bonehead@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Acknowledgement, "we're sorry", and then quickly forgotten as the news cycles moves on. This will have no lasting effects. Everyone will have forgotten this by next week.

Edit: You also left this out...

He added that “sometimes underperforming employees don't actually listen to the feedback they've gotten before we let them go.” He also explained that letting someone go doesn't necessarily brand them as a bad employee. “It doesn't mean (they) won't be really, really great somewhere else,” said Mr Prince.

[–] novamdomum@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

People said that the API revolt on reddit would change nothing and yet here we both are discussing the terrible behaviour of yet another corporation on a completely different platform to reddit that I would never even have known about if it weren't for exactly this kind of story. I believe things do change and I certainly won't forget that Cloudflare did this and I suspect you won't either.

[–] Bonehead@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Cloudflare isn't a social media site where all the users discussed the revolt on the site. Most people outside of IT don't even know what Cloudflare is or that it even exists. A lot of people don't even know what Reddit is.

[–] novamdomum@kbin.social 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"Most people outside of IT don't even know what Cloudflare is or that it even exists." They do now ;)

[–] Bonehead@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

And by next week, they'll forget because they don't ever plan to apply there for work. The small percentage of people that will avoid applying there because of this is a small drop in the bucket of people that will still apply. This is no where near as important as some people make it out to be.

[–] novamdomum@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Yet the CEO felt the need to try to do some damage limitation. Clearly he doesn't share your confidence about the lack of impact this could have on the company's reputation.