this post was submitted on 23 Dec 2023

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"If you tell a lie big enough and tell it frequently enough, people will eventually come to believe it". What is an example of this happening today? (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 11 months ago by Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

541 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I would really rather that these were actual examples, and not conspiracy theories. We all have our own unsubstantiated ideas about what shadowy no-gooders are doing, but I'd rather hear about things that are actually happening.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Since 2020 China literally has more workplace protections for trans people than the US

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.com/news/people-culture/gender-diversity/article/3243608/blessing-china-court-lauds-rule-law-backs-transgender-staffer-fired-being-absent-while-leave

Don't pinkwash your redscare.

Also Xi isn't a dictator. He was literally elected by a democratic assembly. Also he historically pushes for more democracy in China, more than the US. Literally look into the idea of whole process people's democracy

“The most basic criterion for democracy is whether people have the right to participate extensively in national governance, whether people’s demands can be responded to and satisfied. In China, the people participate in the management of state affairs, social affairs, and economic and cultural affairs; they provide opinions and suggestions for the design of national development plans at the highest level and also contribute to the governance of local public affairs; they take part in democratic elections, consultations, decision-making, management, and oversight...."

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/whole-process-peoples-democracy-in-china-what-does-it-mean/

[–] HakFoo@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 11 months ago

The West seems to define "democracy" in a very specific form: there MUST be multiple competing political parties and power MUST, at least in theory (compare Singapore, Mexico, etc) regularly transfer between them as the result of elections.

This is something Western states have been able to pull off, but it's actually sort of peripheral to the theoretical INTENT of democracy-- that the government serves the masses. Good governance is pretty much a by-product of the fear of being voted out of office.

You can, and often do, have the all-sacred elections and peaceful transfer of power and still have a government which isn't acting in service of its electorate. Sure, you can pick red corporate stooge or blue corporate stooge, but the Overton window is still a narrow slit that represents no real threat to the rich, and factionalism and winner-take-all elections sabotage any actual forward motion.

Meanwhile, the single-party state, unencumbered by having to tear itself apart in battles for the throne every four years, can focus on consensus and actual needs. Good governance can come from a sense of civic duty, or even a smartly weaponized corruption (if everyone thrives, my cut of graft grows with it!)

[+] Syldon -9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Since 2020 China literally has more workplace protections for trans people than the US

So does this mean China has better protection ? This is not a valid comment unless they are both starting from the same point.

Also Xi isn’t a dictator. He was literally elected by a democratic assembly.

Adolf Hitler was elected, as was Putin. All are essentially the sole control of their countries. Being a dictator is not summarised by the method you gain power; it is what you do with that power after it obtained.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

So does this mean China has better protection ? This is not a valid comment unless they are both starting from the same point.

China's courts hold transphobic firings to be illegal. In the US similar protections generally don't exist, and where they do, they actually don't because of at will employment law.

Adolf Hitler was elected.

He was not elected, he was appointed to his position. You should speak with less confidence on this subject until you can get basic facts right.

as was Putin.

Putin won a bourgeois election. Also putin isn't a dictator, he is the executive officer of a capitalist oligarchy.

All are essentially the sole control of their countries. Being a dictator is not summarised by the method you gain power; it is what you do with that power after it obtained.

No, being a dictator means you aren't accountable to other political power structures. Xi can be instantly recalled by the constituent assembly if they want. The constituent assembly is made of representatives sent by local democratic councils.

[–] Syldon -5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Hitler's party was elected in, much like the UK prime minister is not actually elected. Hitler still had to win a seat in the Reichstag, so.....

Putin is a dictator. No one is allowed to stand against him. In the current election the 29 candidates who have tried to stand have had that right taken away from them for one reason or another. Putin has the final say on what goes on in Russia. Putin and Xi may have the illusion of being recalled, but it will not happen. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either spouting propaganda or one very gullible individual.

I can easily believe that the GOP are creating problem for the LBGQT community, but they are soon to be ousted from any power they posses. Many of the gerrymandering that has gone on has been reversed or will be in time for the next elections. In NY state alone this will be enough to overturn the lead the GOP has on blocking legislation.

As for the "at will employment" law China has exactly the same thing.

The reasons for dismissal with prior notice, which are not attributable to the faults of the employee, include incompetence even after training or a transfer of position, non-work-related illness, and a change in the objective circumstances on which the labour contract was originally concluded.

Where the incompetance is discretionary then there is little an employee can do to protect himself.

The USA has National anti discrimination laws, China has no discriminatory laws, but also has nothing to protect an individual.

So your idea that China is a better place to be doesn't really hold water in my opinion. Yes, there are some republican states that are making things hard, but this is a very short lived episode in US politics imo.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Hitler’s party was elected in, much like the UK prime minister is not actually elected. Hitler still had to win a seat in the Reichstag, so…

The UK prime Minister is also appointed lol.

Putin is a dictator. No one is allowed to stand against him. In the current election the 29 candidates who have tried to stand have had that right taken away from them for one reason or another. Putin has the final say on what goes on in Russia. Putin and Xi may have the illusion of being recalled, but it will not happen. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either spouting propaganda or one very gullible individual.

Notice how you didn't include any evidence of Xi being a dictator

I can easily believe that the GOP are creating problem for the LBGQT community, but they are soon to be ousted from any power they posses. Many of the gerrymandering that has gone on has been reversed or will be in time for the next elections. In NY state alone this will be enough to overturn the lead the GOP has on blocking legislation.

Lol

As for the “at will employment” law China has exactly the same thing.

From your own link

Employees can only be dismissed if one of the statutory reasons for termination is fulfilled. This means that an employer cannot dismiss an employee at will.

Proving incompetence is a higher bar than at will employment actually

The USA has National anti discrimination laws, China has no discriminatory laws, but also has nothing to protect an individual.

They materially don't.

So your idea that China is a better place to be doesn’t really hold water in my opinion.

China isnt involved in carrying out a genocide rn, and China hasn't destabilized the middle east through mass violence. China is better.

[–] Syldon -3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Notice how you didn’t include any evidence of Xi being a dictator

Aside from the fact that no one is allowed to run for elections unless they have party approval. China doesn't even try to hide that there is no real democracy there.

Proving incompetence is a higher bar than at will employment actually

Subjective.

They materially don’t.

Again subjective.

China isnt involved in carrying out a genocide rn, and China hasn’t destabilized the middle east through mass violence. China is better.

Come on. Uighurs must surely count as human beings. That is just plain wrong man.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Aside from the fact that no one is allowed to run for elections unless they have party approval. China doesn’t even try to hide that there is no real democracy there.

They literally have 9 parties
if one political party had 95 percent approval rating(based on western polling, the cpc does) it is reasonable that there is one major party and 8 minor parties

Come on. Uighurs must surely count as human beings. That is just plain wrong man.

That propaganda:

A) is being spread by adrien zenz, a nazi paid by a cia front group to spread shit, who claims God gave him a personal mission to destroy china

B) is old news that was abandoned when the area opened up for tourism again, and there were magically no camps

C) isn't believed by basically every Muslim country on earth who sent delegations to see what was going on, meanwhile the US which cares so much about Muslims it is enabling genocide against muslims as we speak thought it is happening before they walked it back. Give me a break.

[–] Syldon -2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

They literally have 9 parties

Does dissuade from the fact that only Communist-party backed candidates can appear in the election. This was the reason there were so many rioters in HK. And hence, why so many were imprisoned or ran from the country for asylum elsewhere.

That propaganda:

Propaganda is a made up narrative to persuade an objective viewpoint. What is happening with Uighurs has a lot of factual video evidence, including first hand reports from those who fled to Türkiye. If it is so untrue why won't China allow visiting diplomats talk about it?

is old news that was abandoned when the area opened up for tourism again, and there were magically no camps

Unbelievably crass opinion. https://www.wired.com/story/xinjiang-uyghur-culture-tourism/

Talking to locals about the camps was impossible. “You can’t really talk to them, because then you’re putting them in danger,” Wack says. “If you mention anything political, they cut the conversation short.” Because he couldn’t visit the camps themselves, he was forced to suggest their presence by documenting how the region has changed. For decades, the Communist Party has been trying to eliminate markers of Uyghur identity and remake Xinjiang so that it appears more “Chinese.” As part of the Belt and Road Initiative, the government has been building major infrastructure projects like high-speed trains and superhighways through the remote province. It has also encouraged Han Chinese, the country’s dominant ethnic group, to move to the area in order to dilute the percentage of Uyghurs living there.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Does dissuade from the fact that only Communist-party backed candidates can appear in the election.

Source?

This was the reason there were so many rioters in HK.

The HK riots started over the lae that allowed extradition created to get a guy who murdered his wife in mainland China and then fled to HK

Propaganda is a made up narrative to persuade an objective viewpoint. What is happening with Uighurs has a lot of factual video evidence, including first hand reports from those who fled to Türkiye. If it is so untrue why won’t China allow visiting diplomats talk about it?

Source?

Unbelievably crass opinion. https://www.wired.com/story/xinjiang-uyghur-culture-tourism/

Lol Wired. And the first link to a claim is straight up from Adrian Zenz.

[–] Syldon -4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

In your opinion. Most of the world has a different opinion. I wont bother responding to your alternate account. Seriously, using two accounts to barrack a differing opinion, sigh.

You state a lot of BS while providing absolutely no evidence to give it any credit, other than your bias towards the west. What links does this guy have to "wired" or the many other media sources that show exactly what is going on in China.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Most of the world has a different opinion.

Almost all of the Muslim world including US allies share my opinion actually:)

In your opinion. Most of the world has a different opinion. I wont bother responding to your alternate account. Seriously, using two accounts to barrack a differing opinion, sigh.

I do think it is funny that you think I have an alt just to tell you you have shitty takes twice. Two people just disagreed with you enough to comment.

You state a lot of BS while providing absolutely no evidence to give it any credit, other than your bias towards the west.

R/selfawarewolves

What links does this guy have to “wired” or the many other media sources that show exactly what is going on in China.

The wired article you shared literally relies on Zenz to cite many of its claims, as do basically all media sources who previously claimed it was happening.

I'm guessing you have a working brain, learn basic research literacy.

[–] Syldon -1 points 11 months ago

So yet again absolutely nothing to substantiate your point of view. GL with your life.