this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2023
1285 points (98.2% liked)
Antiwork
3648 readers
2 users here now
A community for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles.
The new place for c/antiwork@lemmy.fmhy.ml
This server is no longer working, and we had to move.
Active stats from all instances
Subscribers: 2.1k
Date Created: June 21, 2023
Library copied from reddit:
The Anti-Work Library 📚
Essential Reads
Start here! These are probably the most talked-about essays on the topic.
- The Abolition of Work by Bob Black (1985) | listen
- On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber (2013) | listen
- In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell (1932) | listen
c/Antiwork Rules
Tap or click to expand
1. Server Main Rules
The main rules of the server will be enforced stringently. https://lemmy.world/
2. No spam or reposts + limit off topic comments
Spamming posts will be removed. Reposts will be removed with the exception of a repost becoming the main hub for discussion on that topic.
Off topic comments that do not pertain to the post at hand may be removed if it is deemed they contribute nothing and/or foster hostility at users. This mostly applies to political and religious debate, but can be applied to other things at the mod’s discretion.
3. Post must have Antiwork/ Work Reform explicitly involved
Post must have Antiwork/Work Reform explicitly involved in some capacity. This can be talking about antiwork, work reform, laws, and ext.
4. Educate don’t attack
No mocking, demeaning, flamebaiting, purposeful antagonizing, trolling, hateful language, false accusation or allegation, or backseat moderating is allowed. Don’t resort to ad hominem attacks against another user or insult other people, examples of violations would be going after the person rather than the stance they take.
If we feel the comment is uncalled for we will remove it. Stay civil and there won’t be problems.
5. No Advertising
Under no circumstance are you allowed to promote or advertise any product or service
6. No factually misleading information
Content that makes claims or implications that can be proven false or misleading will be removed.
7. Headlines
If the title of the post isn’t an original title of the article then the first thing in the body of the post should be an original title written in this format “Original title: {title here}”.
8. Staff Discretion
Staff can take disciplinary action on offenses not listed in the rules when a community member's actions or general conduct creates a negative experience for another player and/or the community.
It is impossible to list every example or variation of the rules. It is also impossible to word everything perfectly. Players are expected to understand the intent of the rules and not attempt to "toe the line" or use loopholes to get around the intent of the rule.
Other Communities
Server status for big servers http://lemmy-status.org/
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Bruh
More efficient powerplants
Larger workforce
More arable land
Literally all of the things that you claimed are impossible are being done, and they're being done because people are investing in them.
No they're not. Only in a few highly specific areas are we even close to possibly ever running out of required materials, and when that gets close to happening, money (ie profit incentive) will spur innovation to alternatives.
Dude, I'm directly responding to what you're saying. I'm not bringing up any new issues here.
And you seem to be COMPLETELY misunderstanding what we're talking about.
No, I simply said that spending money was less harmful than hoarding money. Best of all would be giving that money away (or having it taken via taxes). I specifically said that.
That's so stunningly wrong I'm not even sure how to begin to address it. You're still stuck on this idea of a single limited pie of resources, where you have to pull from one sector to get benefits in another. That's not how the economy works, and I don't know how long I can keep telling you that.
See, you almost got it...you touched on it, but then didn't stop to consider. You just dismissed the central facet of modern economics as an "external factor".
Investment prompts technological change. That is the entire point. Greater velocity of money, more investment, more technology, more efficiency, better quality of life.
Every Economics 101 textbook starts with a similar example.
In Florida, the climate is good for growing oranges.
In Kansas, the climate is good for growing corn.
In Washington state, the climate is good for growing apples.
Now what if Florida wants apples? Well they can barter with Washington. But what if Washington doesn't want oranges? Well maybe they can do a 3 way trade with Kansas. But what if Washington doesn't want corn either? Enter money, a fungible IOU that Washington can exchange for cars, water, labor, anything. Everyone gets that.
But the secondary point of that analogy is this: the climate in Florida is not great for growing apples. If Florida tried to grow their own apples, they would have fewer apples AND fewer oranges. If Florida focuses solely on growing oranges, and Washington focuses solely on growing apples, we end up with more apples AND more oranges. This demonstrates that money (and investment) facilitates specialization and technological advancement. Thus, yes, infinitely producing more goods and better quality. It's an upward spiral.
Without money, Florida would try to grow apples, and Washington would try to grow oranges, and everyone's life would suck just a little more.
Expand that waaaaaaaaay out to the modern day. We have highly specialized facilities for producing car steering wheels that are the best dang car steering wheels that the world has ever seen. They produce them in the most efficient manner that the world has ever seen. Why? Money. Investment. You have a phone in your pocket that is more powerful than a computer that took up a whole room in the 1970s. Money. Investment. The average lifespan (covid excepted) has been steadily trending up for decades. Money. Investment.
Spending money is a good thing.
That's...not how physics works either. I don't know if I have the energy for THAT conversation though.
You're just repeating irrelevant basic theory that everybody already knows, which has nothing to do with your particular assertion about rich people spending their money, while merely pretending it's relevant so you sound like you know what you're talking about. And you're doing so entirely anecdotally, without any substantive principles, math, reasoning, or empirical basis to back it up, while talking down as if you're spitting some great truth.
Oh, and you're conflating technological progress with supply and demand, which, while technically related (in that it can be affected by supply and demand, like everything else), is not governed by the same laws, is not the same topic, and is in no way guaranteed (...and is not prominently featured in, like, any serious/major school of macroeconomic thought). Oh, and you're conflating primary sector output limits as the sole possible bottleneck for productive capacity, which at no point did I assert, and which is plainly ridiculous. And frankly, I don't feel like wasting the energy to pay attention in the rest of your tautological and bloviating rambling to check what else you're mixing up, but from a quick skim, it looks like you also try to completely change your narrative from "demand" to "technology", while twisting semantics to pretend you were never talking in the first place about what you were actually saying.
Frankly, if you can't even explain that weird part where you just ignored and directly contradicted basic monetary theory and its constituent mathematical laws while insulting me personally, I don't know why you would expect anything else you say about this to be taken seriously.
I linked to— What, five pretty rigorously studied basic economic and mathematical theorems, principles, formulae, etc., so far, to substantiate everything I've said. And you haven't even addressed a single one of them— Instead, you've just been blindly bloviating about "how the economy works", insultingly calling things "stunningly wrong", and ranting about "how long [you] can keep telling" me about something where you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Read the fucking manual. I even linked you to some encyclopaedic summaries. And stop talking about something you clearly have no idea about and have zero interest to actually engage in good faith on or do any serious referencing on, as if you're some authority on it.
This is actually a subject on which my knowledge is quite incomplete, and I would have liked to be exposed to more, if you had anything to offer other than the economic equivalent of confused and angry fairy tales. But I think my disgust at this interaction now outweighs anything I might have hoped to gain from it.
This is useless.
Oh shiiiiiit someone went to www.dictionary.com
"bloviating" lol
You're just linking to shit that you have zero understanding of. You clearly have not studied any of this, even the "econ 101" that I mentioned. I don't know why you're arguing so hard in favor of this position that you've cooked up solely in your own brain.
You're seriously suggesting that efficiency increases don't feature prominently in any serious school of macroeconomic thought.
You don't even know what "anecdotally" means.
I don't think you're trolling, per se, but something akin to compulsive lying. You're saying things that are completely wrong, though plausible sounding to someone who's never considered the topic in-depth, and covering up these untruths with a flurry of five dollar words...why? To save face? You're linking to stuff that's moderately advanced economics but is only understandable in the context of a basic understanding of how the economy works, which you refuse to acknowledge.
For example, Pareto efficiency. If you just googled stuff that you want to grab to support your core idea of "there are limited resources and increasing one thing requires decreasing another thing", then the overview/description/summary sounds, initially, like something akin to what you're talking about. ie, "Pareto efficiency is when it is impossible to make one party better off without making another party worse off." Cool, you googled, you found a thing, you copied, you pasted. Great.
But you fail to understand that Pareto efficiency is a snapshot of a given economic sector (or economy). It's not an eternal state. If a factory produces widgets and bobs, it may reach pareto efficiency producing 50 widgets and 10 bobs per hour. A technological improvement may come along that enables it to produce 65 widgets and 15 bobs per hour, still in a state of pareto efficiency. It's not saying that the factory can only EVER produce 50 widgets and 10 bobs. It's saying that at that moment with the given possibilities, 50 widgets and 10 bobs is the maximal output. It's a constant moving target. Pareto efficiency does not deal with the fact that profit incentive will drive research into more efficient production of widgets and bobs. It is not a way of explaining the circulation of money within an economy, or the function of investment vs savings.
So no, I'm not going to address each of the things you linked, because you don't understand them. You're just grabbing stuff with verbiage that seems to support your core argument. You're like a dog latching on to the words "treat" and "walk".
What I'm trying to do is explain to you the central ideas underpinning economic theory. Not a specific theory, but ALL economic theory. Your core premise is incorrect, so your understanding of different theories dealing with different aspects of the economy will be incorrect. There's no point discussing those things because we haven't gotten past step zero: the fundamentals of how an economy works.
Moved goalposts:
What you were originally talking about was higher velocity and demand directly and immediately stimulating higher production in presumably linear proportion with no downsides. Double the velocity, get double the goods, which is just plainly nonsense.
What you're now pretending you were always talking about is higher demand stimulating technological change which then later increases the efficiency of the economy, allowing more goods to be produced overall. Double the demand, maybe 50 years later get 15% more goods, which is not the same.
If you had started out with the second position, then that would be mostly fine. "Rich people should spend their money in ways that will stimulate innovation to benefit us all later on" is somewhat reasonable! But you didn't go with that. At first, you didn't even specify, and then you went with this weird take implying a much more direct relationship than is physically and technologically possible between velocity and output. So naturally, I responded to that, the near-term monetary effects of which would likely not be good for most people.
Regurgitating irrelevant basics everybody already knows:
Insults:
I love how blatant it is that you had to look this word up, and then had to project that onto me (thrice, in five sentences!) to protect your ego.
Delusional grandstanding:
"I'm not even going to try to defend my point because you're too stupid to understand it, so instead I'm just going to yell at you about irrelevant-but-technically-correct stuff to save face with insults thrown in every now and then."
Lmfao.
Bullshit:
I debated whether that's the right word. Anecdotal evidence is usually at least factual, just not relevant or representative. Your various allegories aren't even consistently factual. But the basic fallacy fits, of simply telling a story with little to substantiate or even define its implications.
MV=PQ, andVdoesn't usually changeQ. If you wanna go with a different or longer-term perspective, then that's fine, but you have to qualify it or clarify it.Productive capacity has bottlenecks. If you want your point to be that more available capital can stimulate technological change to increase it, then that's fine. But that's not what you were saying, until I showed your original point was not defendable.
At this point, you've demonstrated specialization, but not technological advancement.
At the point where I linked to Pareto efficiency, I literally was talking about a snapshot of the economy in any given moment.
But it is also the equilibrium (or, more accurately, the equilibria), roughly, in a functioning economy. This is one of the other things I referenced you to, which you've conveniently decided is beneath your all-knowing-ness to stoop to the level of acknowledging.
Strawmans:
…This one, which you keep repeating, is especially dishonest, because my original reference to "stealing the entire pie" wasn't even about productive capacity at first, but was replying to your opinion that private philanthropy absolves systemic inequality.
I claimed, as a rough rule, that they cannot be simply magic'd into existence by monetary policy/effects alone, which is what you were suggesting.
I don't know what to make of how you've now folded the entire fields of nuclear physics, electrical engineering, demography, etc. under "Money Good!". Like everything in a market economy, they're affected by and require an appropriate degree of investment. That doesn't mean you can just dump more cash into the economy to get miracles back.
You're seriously pretending raw materials, and not, you know, labour or tech for processing those materials, are the main bottleneck for productive capacity.
(And yes, capital also counts, and technology can indeed advance. But it's nowhere near the all-consuming force you're portraying it as, nor guaranteed.)
The sad part is that the basic point you now seem to be reaching for, underneath all the bullshit and vitriol, isn't even wrong. If you're willing to take the immediate social and monetary chaos of trillions of dollars of "rich people"'s money being dumped into and taking over the system, then sure, maybe in the long run it might stimulate technological advancement that will benefit everybody.
But you're so cocky, aggressive, and incapable of forming a coherent point that it's taken you thousands of words to fail to explain that, while apparently directly contradicting both economic theory and the basic math it's defined in, all while making an ass of yourself.
…Block, and move on, perhaps. Or just ignore, maybe .... It's hard for me to understand that sometimes people don't use words to examine the truth, but instead use words to disrupt it for their own ego, pride, or power.... Well, fuck this.
And suddenly, I'm less afraid of LLMs, because no matter how delusional and insidious and oblivious those statistical inferences may be, I'm reminded again that humans like you are already way worse.