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Relationship Mechanics Work Because The Game's Creatives Value Human Complexities
(www.themarysue.com)
this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2023
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Baldur's Gate 3
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Baldur’s Gate 3 is a story-rich, party-based RPG set in the universe of Dungeons & Dragons, where your choices shape a tale of fellowship and betrayal, survival and sacrifice, and the lure of absolute power. (Website)
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This is the same mary sue site that said aunti ekel design is anti Semitic.
Well, I hate to break it to you, but yes. It is. Not intentionally so, I’m sure, but using a large hook nose in a bad character does spring from an antisemitic stereotype. I’m sure Larian didn’t do it on purpose, because “big-nose baddie” is kind of ingrained in western cultural at this point, but those are the roots of it.
Understanding the Antisemitic History of the “Hooked Nose” Stereotype - Media Diversity Institute
No its not the roots of it at all ugly character traits are not exclusive to anti antisemitic stereotypes.
Looking at aunt ekel and thinking ah jewish stereotype isnt the normal reaction thats a self report. Grievence mythology is cancer
…Did you even read what I linked to? I’m honestly curious.
It did give me a good laugh with how uninformed its article is. And well given the source im not surprised that its perspective is extremely limited with that authors world view
Ok, I can see continuing this conversation will go nowhere for either of us, so you have a nice day.
Where did you want it to go? . Do you think that author was correct in thinking aunti eckel was designed to be anti semetic?
I don’t think it was designed by Larian intentionally to be antisemetic, no. Which I said in my first comment. It’s that the trope they used of the “hook-nosed witch” (and that steals babies!) has antisemitic roots. It’s just it’s so engrained in western culture most folks don’t realize at all where the image came from. I don’t at all think Larian did it maliciously or consciously.
And as for where I expected the conversation to go, well, I don’t engage in conversations where someone is being aggressive or completely dismissive of another point of view. It’s a waste of time and I don’t fight with angry randos on the internet. I have better things to do.
"I don’t think it was designed by Larian intentionally to be antisemetic, no. Which I said in my first comment. It’s that the trope they used of the “hook-nosed witch” (and that steals babies!) has antisemitic roots. It’s just it’s so engrained in western culture most folks don’t realize at all where the image came from. I don’t at all think Larian did it maliciously or consciously."
Its a false conclusion to assume a commonly known ugly trait has only one source especially when other cultures that had no jewish cultural connections have similer concepts. A single charaicacture doesnt have a monopoly on character traits. Especially when mythology like the hag and witches existed before the jewish chararicture existed.
"And as for where I expected the conversation to go, well, I don’t engage in conversations where someone is being aggressive or completely dismissive of another point of view. It’s a waste of time and I don’t fight with angry randos on the internet. I have better things to do."
Yeah thats fair im being fairly dismissive since i find the premise of the argument inherently ridiculous as the only way to come to this conclusion to cherry pick history and ignore everything else. This position is Commonly held by historical revisionists and grivence studies enthusiasts. To put it another way i view people who hold this position to be in the same league as flat earthers and alien conspiracy theorists.
So you are correct to walk away.
On a side note, aside from our other ongoing discussion:
I'm a believer that at some point, we need to let go of the origin of things and embrace their current meaning. Language evolves. So do other cultural aspects. Just because something was once offensive doesn't mean it has to be that way forever. And I say this as a PoC.
Maybe in the west, but we do it in Asia, and we couldn't care less about Jews.
It started in the West, though.
More extreme example: the original version of Jynx the Pokemon is not intentionally racist, but it started as an adoption of Western blackface cartoons. Is it a common trope in Asia? Yes. Is it intended to be racist? Not at all. Is it actually racist? Yes.
Blackface is directly traceable back to slavery, and no earlier. Something as simple as hooked noses or ugly physical characteristics, however? That's universal.
Because there’s never any influence in art styles and tropes between Asia and Europe, right?
Oh wait.
Unless you're claiming that hooked noses and other ugly physical characteristics were never used before the Nazis, which I very much doubt, what basis do you have for claiming that ALL such portrayals today are antisemitic? The world does not revolve under Israel. It is possible for other cultures to have aspects that, believe it or not, do not relate directly to western culture.
They were used before the Nazis; what are you talking about? This type of imagery goes back to the Middle Ages, well before Nazi Germany. For example, the stereotypical pointed witch hat? It’s based on the “judenhut,” which Jewish people were required to wear in the 1200s (see image).
And ffs, I’m not saying they are always antisemitic, I am saying they have their ROOTS in antisemitism. I know nuances is often lost on the internet, but please look at the words I am actually using, not what you think I’m saying.
…and why are you bringing Israel into this? Wtf?
At this point I'm not clear what you're trying to say. You're contradicting the article which you linked to yourself. The article states that these imagery only started being associated with the Jews during the Nazi era. You claim otherwise.
How can caricature, which has been around for millenia, have its roots in antisemitism? Especially in the context of Eastern cultures which couldn't give a shit about Jews and the Holocaust. One century, we were all making fun of each other, but the next century we were copying the Nazis?
Why on earth are you focusing so much on the Nazis, especially after I pointed out how some of the imagery used for witches and hags goes back to the 1200s?
Antisemitic caricatures were applied to witches (in fact, “witch’s sabbaths” used to be called “witch’s synagogues”), and that imagery was solidified with the printing press and normalized in Europe as what a “witch” looked like. Then, the modern era, that same imagery was used in Disney films (ie, the witch disguise the wicked queen used when she gave Snow White the poisoned apple) and other kinds of media, because that’s just what a “witch” looks like. The image of a “wicked witch” spread around the world, including Asia (because how common is a large hooked nose over here anyway, and yes, I say “here” because I’ve lived in Asia for 20 dang years now). People use that image of a “wicked witch” with, in general, no idea where it original came from. That’s why I say it has its roots in antisemitism but isn’t necessarily used with antisemitic intention or ever knowledge of where the imagery comes from.
Because that's what the entire article you linked was about! Why were you even linking that if you don't agree with what they're saying? It's like you didn't even read it before posting 😓 Fine, dropping the dang article and moving on.
My point, which you haven't actually addressed so far, is that caricature has always been around. Maybe not witches, but other things. Given that, it's extremely western-centric to assert that all caricature today is rooted solely in antisemitism. It has roots far older and further back than that.
We’re talking around each other. Have a nice day!