this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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Wait a minute.. Who invaded Ukraine in 2014, and again in 2021? Who illegally annexed sovereign territory? America is not blameless, but in this war they are just the arms dealer
The USA has been training Ukraine military and irregulars for years. They organized a volunteer force to go fight there. They sent their politicians to support the right-wing coup. What the fuck are you talking about they are just arms dealers? They are providing recon and military intelligence, they are mobilizing their satellites and aerial assets, they are doing political work to get other nations to provide support and they are putting constraints on peace deals. They are not a fucking arms dealer.
The US also sent a large number of politicians to spend 4th of July (their biggest nationalist holiday) in Russia.
Was there a coup immediately after their visit?
if you are right and they are just an arms dealer they are still the bad guys. You understand arm's dealers are bad people right?
No. That's a reductionist take.
"Can we have some weapons to defend ourselves?"
"No! That'd make us evil. You should just die. "
Oh a hexbear. ... You lot only have overly simplistic takes.
Yes, rip bozos
My eternal grief for the hundreds of thousands of innocent Ukrainians pressed into the meatgrinder by their Nazi overlords, eternal death to the genocidal Kiev regime and their campaign of extermination against their own country's citizens of Russian descent for eight years
CW: literally, unfathomably vile
The Ukrainian fascist soldiers are offering you cans of 'Separatist Baby Meat'!
You realize the people in those photos are Russian citizens and connected to Wagner PMC, right? Identify each of them for us and prove you know what the hell you're posting. Anyone can post a picture of a Nazi flag and say "See? SEE!??"
Yeah, those damn Ruskies sure love carrying around banner portraits of Stepan Bandera and flying blue and yellow flags next to their swastikas and black suns and wolfsangels.
All of these are Russian's too, right? Especially the ones that say Azov Battalion? https://leftypol.org/edu/src/1662026001627.webm
The people flying the Ukrainian flag are actually Russian?
Yes. They are Wagner
Prove it.
I'm sure no Russian would ever got a Ukrainian flash for propaganda. /s
Ukraine good, Russia bad. It follows that these Ukrainians doing bad stuff are in fact Russians.
It's a non-falsifiable orthodoxy that turns evidence on its head until it fits the pre-conceived narrative.
Do you enjoy carrying water for literal fascists?
Reposting the same link as in my other comment, just because it so perfectly demonstrates how stupid and/or disingenuous it is to think that the near infinite written and photographic examples of Ukraine's love of nazi iconography is actually a Russian false flag attempt:
https://leftypol.org/edu/src/1662026001627.webm
Uh yea gonna need you to identify these Russian citizens in those pro bandera, ukraine flag waving marches here.
Uh yeah gonna need the person claiming the photos are legit to post some proof. Burden of proof is on the presenter. That was my comment that you replied to. Since you can't, we can assume you are arguing in bad faith and have nothing to contribute
Bruv Idk what to tell you ukraine has a known problem with its far right elements, and here are pictures presented of exactly that.
YOU claimed these pictures were Wagner pmcs dressing up and holding fake far right marches with Ukrainian iconography. YOU back that claim up.
And the person posting them produced no sources.
Tell you what: I'll post a picture of Martha Stewart and Snoop (there are lots of these photos on the interwebs) and then I'll start telling everyone Martha is Snoop's secret lover. I've presented a narrative that cannot be proven and is not the real story, BUT THERE ARE PICTURES! You see, without some sort of context and verification, any picture can be used to present a false narrative.
Okay well
Ukraines problems with the far right HAVE been proven tho
www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-far-right-menace-radical-militants-ultranationalists/amp/
Interesting last part of linked article:
Guess what you're doing?
Next link is an article by The Guardian. It includes a collection of pictures, too. Are you going to tell them to identify every single person in those pictures, too?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/11/ultranationalism-in-ukraine-a-photo-essay
Another one by The Guardian:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis
Next article is by Reuters. The article opens with said paragraphe:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUKKBN1GV2TY
Please note I've used exclusively western sources of which I suspect you'd refer to too. There are more, but I'm doubting your intellectual honest and curiosity, as these links were just one Google Search away.
And before you call me a putler bot or anything, as your types often do, fuck putin, the war is horrible and the fact he started it is unforgivable. Russia is a neoliberal state that in no way aligns with my own ideology. This doesn't mean I have to all of a sudden voice support for the Ukrainian state or nato for that matter, considering the many crimes of said state and military pact. It's a war between neoliberal, highly corrupt states in which the Russian and ukrainian working class stand nothing to gain.
What I'd wish to see (apart from revolutionary defeatism on both sides and a socialist takover of both states) is an end to the killing, the full return of Russia to the 2021 borders, independence for loehansk and donetsk, a neutral ukraine as a buffer between nato and Russia. But nothing points to Russia willing to give up gained ground, or to Ukraine being able to break through the russian defences. Looking at a map showing the gains after two months of counteroffensive makes this clear, it's something I feel we can't deny. To think ukraine is going to reach the sea of azov or crimea is nothing but hopeful idealism at best.
So, assuming you too want and end to the killing, and view the saving of human lives as more important than regaining the regions currently occupied, we'd have to think about the fastest way to do that. Is it to keep sending shipments of weapons and ammo to Ukraine? Well, NATO has been doing that for a year and a half now, not exactly to great effect. Note that in that time, hundreds of thousands of people were killed or injured. We can scream that putin should just retreat back to the border, but we both know that's just not going to happen, no matter how many conscripts are sent into Russian minefields and artillery kill zones.
Well.. Then what remain? In my mind, it's negotiations. Ukraine will be presented with terms they deem unacceptable, but if they don't want to run out of Ukrainians, they'll have to accept. I suspect they'll have to wave goodye to the donbas region, but I also believe the citizens of said region would rather be either independent or integrated as Russian territory.
What would you like to happen, and how do you see that happening? Oh and if you ever get around to identifying the Russians in those pictures, hmu.
Needs more jpeg
When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of "always throwing walls of text at people." When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we "only have simplistic takes."
There's no winning with you simple-minded dronies, but I guess there never is when one side can just make shit up that fits their vibes-based outlook on the world.
Which part was carefully chosen wording, and where are your citations?
What are you even asking for? What do you want citations on? As I made very clear with quoted text, I was responding to a claim about everyone on the hexbear instance.
Do you want citations and careful wording that hexbear people use citations and careful wording? Or do you want citations and careful wording about something specific having to do with the topic of the OP? In either case, just read the comments from hexbear users all over this thread.
You're claiming that you argue from a valid point of citing your arguments, and presented zero citation. The person the replied to needed no citations for their argument because they presented ideas, not facts. You're raging trying to tell people to cite things but you're sitting in your tower without presenting citations. You're a ragebait clown 🤡
You said:
It's unclear whether you're deliberately misinterpreting InappropriateEmote or whether you simply don't understand them. Either way, it seems sensible to quote the text that you're replying to:
This means that when Hexbear users present a longer argument with references, they get accused of writing walls of text. In response to this criticism, there is another approach: short and pithy responses.
InappropriateEmote is unambiguously saying that in this example they went with option 2, a short and pithy response. They are not claiming to have provided a longer argument with references.
This was said in response to a quip intended to shut down the discussion rather than deal with a critique:
The alternative (dealing with the substance of the claim) would have required accepting all the other evidence that the US is both arms dealer and directly involved in running the Ukraine war and directing where it's dealt arms go. Again as with yours, there was an attempt to decontextualize what a Hexbear user said so as to dismiss the overall argument without addressing it's crucial features.
It is entirely unclear what point you're trying to make by distinguishing ideas from facts. Unless it's a weird brag about being grounded in unfounded opinion rather than fact, which, if it is, is not the argument you think it is.
🤡
Damn, that's a powerful argument.
At least we know now. It doesn't have to be this way. We will be here to explain how the world works whenever you're ready to learn.
But they're from hexbear, that means they're always right duh
/s
No one ever said we are always right, and we can't be, because our internal struggle sessions are well know. We weren't even able to federate for 3 years due to incompatible code, and in that time, disagreed (to put it lightly) on things all the time in ways where both sides can't be right. I realize it can be convenient for you to talk about people you're trying to disparage as a monolith, but I assure you, no hexbear thinks hexbears are always right.
But when it comes to actually knowing shit about geopolitics, and understanding realities beyond the narrative that has been crafted to justify the ruling class' dominance and hegemony, it's hard to get it wrong when you're talking to propagandized liberals who eat up that narrative like good little unquestioning beneficiaries of empire. That much is true.
If I were to understand history based entirely on two or three headlines in The Atlantic
After whose coup d'etat?
Ahhh let's talk about those! The one in Russia last month was pretty cool. Sending Wagner to Belarus to mess with Poland, only for Poland to send 10,000 troops and see Wagner get shipped out of Belarus was pretty funny. Russia keeps trying the same playbook, and now it's being met with equal force, so they're pissed. Same reason the EU border states just expelled thousands of Russian citizens.
They keep trying to stage coups using Russian citizens. The coup in Ukraine in 2014 was preceded by a border buildup of "special operation forces." It also noteworthy how Russia has changed the lingo and now calls it "War in Ukraine."
Is it fun living in this fantasy world?
Mate, ease up on the drugs. The real world is still going to be waiting for you when you come down.