“People think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldn’t be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we haven’t lost a single American in this war,” McConnell said. “Most of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So it’s actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.”

cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/4085063

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[–] dsmk@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh, I'm liberal now. Weird as I was a fascist just before I left reddit. In a few hours someone will call me a communist.

You should be honest with yourself and at least become familiar with the context of the demands before forming an opinion. I’ll give you a hint: UA does have a very real Nazi problem that is directly connected to RF’s invasion.

I'm very honest with myself. I also try to not bullshit myself into believing it's only an Ukraine problem.

Russia didn't invade Crimea and then the Donbas region in 2014 because of Nazis. After Yanukovych weirdly reverted his position on Europe (European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement) and got kicked out, Russia decided to invade to support all those "Russian speakers". Of course, there was even a referendum, but as Igor Girkin said, they had the guns and politicians did as they were told.

People like to forget that far-right groups like the Azov Battalion and some of far-left/anarchist groups that joined the fight were only created after the invasion, after the Ukrainian army completely failed to do their job. It's as if the ultra-nationalist and people with more extreme views in general are the first to react to an aggression against their country! /s

But yes, Ukraine had "nazis", but so did Russia. I recommend reading about people like Aleksandr Dugin (and his views), which seems to be liked even by Putin himself. As a space fan and a fan of some of the Soviet accomplishments, I couldn't help but notice that when the war started, the boss of Roscosmos was Dmitry Rogozin... an old member of the Russian National Unity party, which had some "interesting" views. In fact, here's a picture of young Rogozin with the flag of the party in the background. I'll also give you a hint: they're nazi as fuck.

I guess we need to invade Russia, right? And make some demands where Russia gives away part of their territory... at least that's what the very well informed and smart people such as yourself think should happen? Or this only applies to when Russia has a problem with someone else?

Also, in 2019 the far-right party (Svoboda) received 2.16% of the votes in the whole country. Not even 3%. And then Russia comes in, invades Ukraine again and transforms Azov into national heroes. Well, good fucking job Russia! I'm sure that helps reducing support for nazis. /s

These are open-ended questions and a proper explanation would take a long time. And let’s just say I’m dubious that you’re actually curious. The (over)simple answer is that they’re taking a deal to be subservient to the United States, which usually requires their political class, and therefore economic ruling class, to see an interest in doing do. Not that they’re correct - the US is slowly deindustrializing its European allies as we speak. The reason why those interests won out? Those are specific historical stories. Try answering your own question but for Ukraine’s toying with NAT membership. What led to the change in their political class?

If that's the case, then Putin must be part of the conspiracy? The guy managed to give a new life to the alliance and even recruited 2 new countries where popular support to joining used to be really low. There's no way he's helping NATO so much without being part of all that. Surely you can see the guy is a plant?

Or maybe there's a simpler explanation (Occam's razor, for the cool kids).

Maybe people read what Russian politicians say, look at the size of their country, remember what happened during the days of the Soviet Union (and now at what happened to Ukraine) and say: "maybe we should be friends with that big guy over there, just in case the local bully decides to invade us".

Of course my lIbErAl mind is too dumb to understand high level politics like you do, but if one reads Putin's On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians and Address concerning the events in Ukraine, it's not that hard to imagine that there's a much simpler reason.

What lead to the change in Ukraine's political class? Other than Yanukovych's reversal and people getting pissed? I don't know. If you're suggesting any foul play, I'd like to remind you that Russia intervened directly in Belarus and Kazakhstan, so apparently that's all good.

Case in point that you’re not curious in any real answers.

I'm curious, that's why I sometimes actually read what Mr Putin says, am aware of his obsession with Peter the Great and his conquest of the Azov sea, etc. I also watch a bit of Russian television as they have interesting views on countries around them. I'm not even talking about weekly threats of nuking European cities or higher ups at Russia Today suggesting that Ukrainian kids should be killed in a river... Did you know that Kazakhstan now has a lot of "ethnic Russians" in need of protection? A bit weird since everything was fine until they stopped playing ball with Russia...

To know the real answers you can't filter out everything that doesn't fit your view. You have people like Putin making up excuses for his view that Ukraine is not really a proper country... yet you decide not to read it and to outright ignore it. And I'm the dumb guy who doesn't want real answers?

Liberals often use cartoonish examples to understand a world for which their knowledge and ideology are inadequate.

My apologies, let me make it easier for you:

Russia, which is not governed by morons, decided to invade Ukraine to accomplish certain objectives. They knew what they were doing, you don't need to make excuses up to defend their actions.
Like any major power, they don't give a fuck about Ukraine or the people that live in Ukraine. It's not a nice thing, but hey, it is what it is.
No, Russia didn't have to invade. No, Ukraine wasn't going to invade Russia (nuclear obviously, plus they struggle to take control of their own territory...). And no, there's no way in hell 2014 Ukraine was going to join NATO (they've been trying since the early 2000's...).

Anyway, if you want to support them, then fine. Just don't try to come up with bs excuses for what they're doing. You like Russia and you like what they're doing. I on the other hand don't agree with they're doing and also have a similar position when other countries do the same, so you can see why I don't support their invasion of Ukraine.

[–] Maoo@hexbear.net -3 points 1 year ago

Oh, I'm liberal now. Weird as I was a fascist just before I left reddit. In a few hours someone will call me a communist.

Fascism is just an offshoot of liberalism so this isn't a zinger

I'm very honest with myself. I also try to not bullshit myself into believing it's only an Ukraine problem.

You definitely tell stories and deflect and make guesses but present them as if they're fact so gonna disagree with you, champ

Russia didn't invade Crimea and then the Donbas region in 2014 because of Nazis.

Yeah duh, or at least not proximally or the exact Nazis being referred to. This feels like saying things just to feel like you're lecturing but it doesn't mean anything. The next two paragraphs don't address what I said or answer my question.

But yes, Ukraine had "nazis", but so did Russia.

Cool, what impact does that have re: Russia's demand? It's a pretty liberal thing to try to come up with pointless gotchas or like entire states are hypocritical or something so you don't need to look any deeper. Are you able to provide even the most basic explanation for why the RF would want UA to hand over/imprison their Nazis?

I recommend reading about people like Aleksandr Dugin

Ahahahahahahaha

I guess we need to invade Russia, right?

Already did. First in 1918, then in the early 90s (it was called the shock doctrine).

Anyways, you seem to again be arguing with some liberal in your head that bases everything on abstract rules and gotchas. Has nothing to do with me or anything I've said.

Also, in 2019 the far-right party (Svoboda) received 2.16% of the votes in the whole country. Not even 3%.

Congratulations you've caught up with liberal arguments from 2022. It is, in fact, peak liberalism to think that election results are the same as political power, or power in general. I'm sure the Roma murdered in tacitly state-supported pogroms are delighted to know Svoboda only got a few percent in an election.

Anyways, you failed to answer my question. I'm not even a tough grader. Just looking for very basic material context, and you couldn't do it. I even gave you a hint!

If that's the case, then Putin must be part of the conspiracy?

This makes no sense.

Maybe people read what Russian politicians say, look at the size of their country, remember what happened during the days of the Soviet Union (and now at what happened to Ukraine) and say: "maybe we should be friends with that big guy over there, just in case the local bully decides to invade us".

This is a form of liberalism called idealism, and it's as hilarious as it is wrong. People just got together, for no clear reason, and thought a bunch until change happened. Actually don't mention "for no clear reason", because this begins the thought of, "well why would I need to think about material causes?", which puts you into dangerous territory of reading or understanding something before having an opinion on it. Best to just make shit up and have little cartoon characters voice your opinions and tell little stories, right?

Of course my lIbErAl mind is too dumb to understand high level politics like you do

You are perfectly capable of understanding anything I've mentioned. You're unwilling and uninterested, and are a victim of propaganda and your society. If you chose honesty, things would go a lot better, but you so far you seem unable to drop the habit of making things up to fill in the gaps. Very defensive behavior, which is typical for Reddit-brained liberlaism.

but if one reads Putin's On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians and Address concerning the events in Ukraine, it's not that hard to imagine that there's a much simpler reason.

Reading Putin and extracting value from it requires already knowing all of the things he mentions, as he is just a singular politician struggling in his own interest, attempting to make very particular cases to very particular audiences. I am... dubious that any of that happened here.

What lead to the change in Ukraine's political class? Other than Yanukovych's reversal and people getting pissed? I don't know.

You skimmed all of that and failed to notice the coup, lol.

I'm curious, that's why I sometimes actually read what Mr Putin says

Your behavior says the exact opposite

To know the real answers you can't filter out everything that doesn't fit your view.

Ahahahahahahaha

My apologies, let me make it easier for you

See the gears turning. You've been criticized! What to say in response? Hmm... well this Maoo jerk just said you used simplistic examples because you can't understand what's happening on the planet due to ignorance and worldview. That's a meany thing to say! Better turn to... uh... condescension? Yeah, and say "I'll make it simpler"! That'll get 'em!

Because I probably do have to spell it out: I said you were being simplistic. Making it simpler is dunking on yourself.

Russia, which is not governed by morons, decided to invade Ukraine to accomplish certain objectives.

You jumped into this thread to flail around because you didn't understand what those were, and continue to miss the most basic points made about them, lol. No wonder this is left vague.

They knew what they were doing, you don't need to make excuses up to defend their actions.

Now you're doing the "I'm rubber you're glue" thing. Amazing how contradiction brings out the inner child in liberals.

Like any major power, they don't give a fuck about Ukraine or the people that live in Ukraine. It's not a nice thing, but hey, it is what it is.

Who are the "they"? Be specific. This will help you on your journey on learning how to know things.

No, Russia didn't have to invade.

According to what logic? Who makes any country invade another? This type of thinking isn't even appropriate for the category of thing we're talking about. I'm giving you baby's first realpolitik here and nothing is sinking in.

No, Ukraine wasn't going to invade Russia

lol who on earth are you talking to? Do you think I said anything like that? If not, tell me who you're talking to. Be specific. Does the person in your head saying these things look like a muppet? Did you win your argument with them?

And no, there's no way in hell 2014 Ukraine was going to join NATO (they've been trying since the early 2000's...).

UA isn't joining NATO in the near term either. If you stopped making shit up and asked questions or read things, you might say things that are germane to this conversation.

Anyway, if you want to support them, then fine.

Liberal brain strikes again. Good guys vs. bad guys. If you criticize me, you must support the bad guys. I have a big brain.

Just don't try to come up with bs excuses for what they're doing. You like Russia and you like what they're doing.

Now we've graduated to the "lying their ass off" portion of disagreeing with a liberal.

I on the other hand don't agree with they're doing and also have a similar position when other countries do the same, so you can see why I don't support their invasion of Ukraine.

Ah yes, that's the thing we're talking about: whether or not you support Russia invading Ukraine.