this post was submitted on 28 Dec 2024
1113 points (97.0% liked)
WTF
831 readers
304 users here now
The average c/WTF enjoyer
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
This is one of those topics that people like to force their views on others and not care about the consequences. Another good example is porn. "I don't think people should watch porn" is something people actually vote for. Yet all the studies performed show sexual assaults and rapes increase everywhere you ban porn. So forcing their views on people has real consequences and they just don't want to acknowledge them.
A vote to ban porn is a vote to increase rapes and sexual assaults. Yes that includes more children being raped as well.
A vote to ban abortions doesn't stop abortions, all it does is increase the number of mother's and babies dying from unsterilized attempts at aborting, children being thrown in dumpsters, buried alive, left outside, dropped at fire departments, put into underfunded orphan systems that have more kids than they can get adopted BEFORE you took away their safer way of not abusing a child.
The only thing these votes do is take away people's choice, and hurt people.
A vote to ban abortion or porn is a vote to hurt people.
With the porn issue, as well as prostitution, you have the unfortunate conflation of two different positions: "I don't want bad things to happen to women", and "I want everyone to follow my moral code".
It's an unfortunate reality that increases in demand for industries that can leverage human trafficking leads to an increase in human trafficking. It's not irrational for someone to be concerned with that.
For those people, discussion about how legalization has aggregate benefits, or how the legalization enables regulations that permit the outcomes to be better even though it's more common.
With the latter group you really can't argue effectively because their position wasn't arrived at out of concern for outcomes. Sexual assault being bad doesn't make something else not bad.
You can have decreased rapes, sexual assaults and sex trafficking. Sex trafficking isn't directly correlated with sex work as many have tried to make it out to be. Better to decriminalize and regulate something than to ban it entirely and force it into "back alley" transactions where there is no protections.
If a sex worker says no to something and someone does it anyways, they cant go to the police and say they were raped.. because they were involved in a criminal act and would be arrested. Decriminalization allows protections that aren't vigilante justice to be formed. It isn't a friend of theirs kicking someone's ass or breaking their legs/killing them.
Who raped you? Well here's his name and credit card information so you can track him down.
The number of people dying from alcohol poisoning is down drastically since we decriminalized and regulated it. It didn't increase the number of people making moonshine, it decreased it.
So, in case the main point of that part of my comment wasn't clear: I agree that legalization gives better opportunities to reduce harm, and that the goal is reduced net harm.
That being said, there's empirical evidence that legalization does increase human trafficking: https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/
Tldr: legalization makes a substitute for trafficking available, but it also increases demand. Unlike alcohol, you can't scale the population of willing women on demand, so if demand scales faster than the substitute trafficking can increase past what was there before.
Something being the right way to reduce harm doesn't mean it doesn't have downsides, or increase another sort of harm to a lesser degree than what's reduced.
Being able to acknowledge and address the dual nature of harm reduction mechanisms is important to discussing them frankly.
I like that they threw in that there is a significant increase in trafficking in countries that practice democracy. That would mean to me that trafficking can be reduced by procedures and punishments.
I'm not sure why we think the demand increases when it is legal, I would have assumed the demand was equal, but I can't imagine the U.S. being the hodgepodge of beliefs, nationalities, and body types it is would have much of a demand for importing sex workers. (But I'm sure I'm wrong there). What stops people now? Like when people sell videos, articles of clothing, and such on sites like Only fans and what not is there policies that somehow punish people for offering more money for someone to meet up?
Can't say I've ever tried to pay someone for sex, and I'm sure many wouldn't be into it if it were decriminalized, but I do have to say I would feel safer knowing they were affiliated with something that ensured they were tested regularly.
STI test panels we should really figure out how to make cheaper and more available. If counties really cared about falling birthrates you'd think they would promote subsiding such and not be so anti-promiscuity, promote health care availability for mothers and children, daycares, schools. I'd laugh to see a government pushing propaganda that pregnant women are very attractive in mainstream media. Operation MILF media
Most services that are sex work adjacent are extremely paranoid about not becoming associated with prostitution. The website itself can be held liable if they're found to harbor it.
Additionally, the risk of criminal penalties deters people, as well as the risk of social embarrassment from something coming to light. Legalization removes those concerns, and so demand increases.
To continue with the prohibition comparison: prohibition can never succeed, but it does reduce consumption. There's a segment of the population who would be willing to partake in whatever is being prohibited, but isn't interested enough to break the law of work through the criminal connections needed to make it happen.
The import of sex workers isn't really to do with the physical diversity. It's more to do with the willingness of the people, or lack thereof. Tricking someone from a poor country into coming to the US and then extorting them into prostitution is unfortunately often more cost effective than charging people more money.
It's why you see so many billboards and signs around international airports informing potential victims of human trafficking that they have rights and can get help.
It's why countries with more prosperous economies and democracies have higher levels of trafficking into them. People, on average, have more economic opportunities that don't involve prostitution and a greater tendency towards self determination.
Exactly. Often when people spout fundamentalist (i.e. stridently unlistening) opinions about abortion, porn, and other hot-button topics like (fundamentalist AKA naive) capitalism, etc I wish they would just study some of the spectacular historical failures at iron-fist methods (orthogonally to their respective ethical for/against arguments). The (alcohol) prohibition and "war on drugs" should be enough reference material alone to see that they don't achieve their stated goals, they just increase income for the people with a hazy enough moral code to play the system. Eventually it ends up looking like the primary goal often is in fact increasing said income...
and that's if they survive.
multiple women have died in texas because of scumfuck Abbot and chickenshit doctors.
https://www.texastribune.org/2024/10/30/texas-abortion-ban-josseli-barnica-death-miscarriage/