The phrase is about hierarchy. Any metaphysical claim can be used to create a "power over" relationship. If a metaphysical belief causes an individual to behave differently a "power over" relationship has been established.

I sense Noble Savage and Orientalism in drags arguments. Why are "power over" relationships stemming from religion only a "white" person problem? Is drag familiar with the Rohingya and their oppressors?

[–] dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Any metaphysical claim can be used to create a "power over" relationship

But not every metaphysical claim is. There are plenty of metaphysical beings even in European mythology who aren't tyrants or even leaders of anyone. Jormungandr is terribly powerful, but he doesn't rule the world, he just eats it. He doesn't oppress anyone until Ragnarok. And it's not just because he's an animal. The Dryads aren't out here building empires, they just want to be left alone with their trees. Cú Chulainn is a supernaturally good warrior with the Hulk's superpowers, but he doesn't oppress anyone. In fact, when he kills Chulainn's dog, he offers to be the man's hound until he finds a new one. That's humility and respect for other people.

The gods were created by people. And people create gods that match what they see in life. Life is good and life is bad. Gods are good and gods are bad. Gods will be worse in a more oppressive culture, and gods will be better in a less hierarchical culture. There's no doubt that the culture of the people who enslaved the world is worse than the culture of their victims. It's not "noble savage" thinking to say that. It's not that people who don't have kings are better than "normal" people. People who don't have kings ARE normal people. Living in a feudalistic or capitalist society is weird and bad. Anarcho-communism is the way humans naturally live.

And besides, the Mayans gave the Europeans a run for their money in the "sucking and having authoritarian gods" department.

[–] within_epsilon@beehaw.org 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I see drags argument for benign Gods using various contexts. Drag seems to be knowledgable about religions. I am as unqualified to determine a benevolent or malevolent religion as I am a king. Thereby "no gods, no masters" captures my incompetence in knowing when to allow another power over me.

[–] dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 week ago

Another really interesting mythological figure is Sun Wukong, the Monkey King, from Journey To The West. He's kind of on the border between mythology and fiction. Like Superman. Sun Wukong is a leader and he is a tyrant, but he's a very unusual case of both.

The monkeys of Flower Fruit Mountain decided to make Sun Wukong their kong because he was the bravest monkey. They all collectively decided on a challenge that whoever did it would be king, and Sun Wukong did it. Being the Monkey King is a ceremonial title for the most part. Sun Wukong does try to teach the monkeys warfare a few times, and it never goes well, because the monkeys are inherently chaotic and therefore bad at following orders. They're not actually a society in the way that humans are, they're just pretending to be a kingdom for fun.

When Sun Wukong gets bored of being the Monkey King, he decides to go to heaven and demand a fancy royal title from the Jade Emperor. This does not go well, and Monkey ends up beating up all the gods until the Buddha finally puts him in his place. Monkey is explicitly doing violence on people with the goal of dominating them into granting him a royal title. But the thing is, Monkey is shallow and he only cares about getting a fancy name. He doesn't want any responsibility and the only power he wants is to be immortal and good at martial arts. (This is where most of Goku's personality comes from).

Sun Wukong is tyrannical and he is technically a leader, but calling him an authoritarian tyrant is completely misleading. He's chaotic neutral. He only really wants to be the Monkey King so he can call himself the Monkey King. He doesn't want to oppress anybody. He's very different to characters like Zeus or Odin. He has a lot more in common with Loki or Dionysus, though with a focus on physical power as opposed to trickery or magic.