this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
1 points (100.0% liked)
/kbin meta
16 readers
2 users here now
Magazine dedicated to discussions about the kbin itself. Provide feedback, ask questions, suggest improvements, and engage in conversations related to the platform organization, policies, features, and community dynamics. ---- * Roadmap 2023 * m/kbinDevlog * m/kbinDesign
founded 1 year ago
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
An agreement like OP is describing is entirely limited to admins who collectively choose to defederate or block problematic instances, but it isn't truly enforceable. The best thing you could do is maintain a site that lists instances that agree to a set of rules like this and actively enforces them.
Right, and it would have to be organized mostly outside the mechanics of the Fediverse: "We all agree to these standards, and further agree to defederate from instances that refuse to follow these standards." Something like that.
That said, much of the Fediverse is still in its infancy. Being too aggressive with this kind of moderation could slow its adoption. Using @enfa's suggestion, some people define racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia so broadly as to create a very limited list of acceptable speech. In the interests of keeping the Fediverse from becoming a left-wing echo chamber, I would only support limiting content on this basis if the types of unacceptable content are narrowly and specifically defined. There is, after all, value in tolerating speech that we disagree with and makes us uncomfortable, with certain limitations.
I think most admins are just going to be focusing on actual hate groups, not tone policing. Most people are generally going to be tolerant of mistakes and misconceptions. As for how it should be defined, I have some ideas; don't use slurs or make derogatory statements against a group of people, don't promote fascism or nazism, don't spread conspiracy theories about certain groups of people, no excusing human rights abuses or denial of it where there is clear evidence. Some examples would be using the N word, saying all or most LGBT+ people are pedophiles or are accepting of it, excusing Putin's behavior, Holocaust denial, and accusing Jewish people of having deadly space lasers. Regarding slurs, I support oppressed people reclaiming them, but general use of them needs to be restricted.
I would like to believe you. However, my experience from Reddit is that people love to "police tone", and even the definition of a hate group has elements of tone policing in it (some groups, usually right-of-center politically, get labeled as "hate groups" even when they don't promote or encourage violence).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that without a really explicit, specific definition of what isn't allowed, moderators and admins will use it as an excuse to silence legitimate viewpoints they disagree with. We'll end up with r/politics all over again (a subreddit notorious for blatantly removing content favoring the political right and banning users for posting such content).
How would you define hate?
An emotion of intense revulsion. Hate speech? Excessively vulgar or violent language directed toward a person or group because of an integral or inalterable component of their identity, such as their skin color, ethnicity, religion, or inalterable physical characteristics.
Many people have a watered-down standard for defining "hate". In my opinion, it's a strong word to be reserved for more extreme circumstances. "Hate" and "hate speech" are most often found in invective by left-leaning people against right-leaning people. Accepting a watered-down definition of hate and hate speech promotes left-leaning echo chambers and disenfranchises right-leaning users, prompting them to flee to more extreme online forums.
EDIT: After a bit more thought, I realized that hate and hate speech are mostly besides the point for me when it comes to content moderation. People should be friendly and courteous in any group I moderate, period. I don't care about the morality of their speech as long as it's courteous and friendly.
The thing is, I do. If someone advocates for limiting my rights because of something I can't change, I don't care how nice their tone is, they are still a bigot.
Yeah, they're definitely a bigot--from a certain perspective. But when you boil it down, bigotry goes both ways. It's value-system-agnostic. By outright banning all bigotry based on your value system, you're not really banning bigotry. You're banning any value systems other than your own. By not tolerating their polite bigotry, you aren't going to change their mind. You're going to alienate them and drive them to more extreme corners of the Internet where they will most likely be radicalized while creating a feel-good echo chamber of your own.
This essay on The Atlantic summarizes my views quite eloquently: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/12/conservatism-without-bigotry/544128/
In short, I believe that polite bigotry should be tolerated in order to prevent the formation of echo chambers and to avoid enticing people to seek more extreme online communities to participate in.
There is no such thing as polite bigotry and it isn't as agnostic as you make it out to be. Bigotry at its core is the belief that certain groups of people don't deserve their human rights because of traits that can't be changed. I also never said I advocated for banning all or even most value systems that don't align with mine. I don't care what others do as long as they aren't forcing their beliefs upon others, advocating for the oppression of others, or otherwise cause harm. If you treat bigotry as a valid belief, you let it get a foothold. Once a significant number of bigots get into positions of power, they start to oppress people. Now lets say just for the sake of argument that it can be tolerated to an extent, I still shouldn't have to be exposed to it on a daily basis. I try to understand things from other peoples perspective, but I will not emphasize with those who consider me inferior and undeserving of my human rights.
You'll never understand other perspectives if you deny them the ability to speak.
Additionally, we know what happens when right-leaning people are denied access to mainstream platforms with their non-extreme, politically incorrect speech: they move to fringe, extremist platforms where they are radicalized and encouraged to engage in acts of violence and terrorism.
I understand your frustration with conservative viewpoints on things like race and gender, but silencing them isn't going to change their minds. I have very close family members who have never been further from changing their viewpoints because they're never invited to discuss them, just told their views are unacceptable and they can either silence themselves, or go somewhere else. And so they abandon mainstream platforms and turn to fringe websites promoting violence, intolerance, terrorism, and more extreme forms of bigotry.
Unless you would prefer those people to stop existing (that being bigotry as well), some tolerance of them is necessary. Pluralism is a net gain for all people, and is a two-way street.
Again, I'm not saying violent or extreme rhetoric shouldn't be prohibited by owners of Kbin or Lemmy instances. I'm simply saying that I don't believe it's healthy for only left-wing perspectives to be allowed in the Fediverse.
I never said that only left wing perspectives belong here, I only said bigotry shouldn't be allowed. You can be conservative without being a bigot. And no, I'm not going to hear someone out if they think I shouldn't be allowed to have any rights. I am a human being, and I deserve to be treated like one.