this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024

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A Boring Dystopia

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submitted 3 months ago by Linkerbaan@lemmy.world to c/aboringdystopia@lemmy.world

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[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 months ago (4 children)

"Pre-emptive" and "self-defense" are objectively true here. Hezbollah initiated its current conflict with Israel and continues to launch attacks; Israel is fighting defensively and destruction of Hezbollah assets prevents future attacks on Israel.

(You might believe that Hezbollah is justified in attacking Israel, but it's still the attacker and Israel is still the defender.)

[+] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

According to the IDF and American intelligence who came to the conclusion within an hour arter the attack, have shown no proof to support the claim and both have a history of false conclusions and outright fabrications when it suits their pro-Israel narrative.

Uh no, according to Hezbollah themselves. Unless of course you believe the Hezbollah leadership are all Mossad plants

Nope. There's no defensive way to bomb civilian targets. That's not how the word or indeed the world works.

There were 3 deaths on the Lebanese side: 2 Hezbollah fighters and 1 from an associated

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Uh no, according to Hezbollah themselves

Gonna need a source on that.

There were 3 deaths on the Lebanese side: 2 Hezbollah fighters and 1 from an associated

Sounds EXTREMELY unlike how the IDF tends to operate. Gonna need a reliable source on that one too.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hezbollah-says-when-time-comes-any-action-we-will-carry-it-out-2023-10-13/

Hezbollah deputy chief Naim Qassem said on Friday that the group would not be swayed by calls for it to stay on the sidelines of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas, saying the party was "fully ready" to contribute to the fighting.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-strikes-hezbollah-targets-lebanon-military-says-2024-08-25/

Hezbollah said the strikes killed two of its fighters in al-Tiri. The Hezbollah-allied Shi'ite Muslim group Amal said a strike on Khiam killed one of its fighters.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world -1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

fully ready

How on earth can you take "we're prepared" to mean claiming that they DID the thing? 🤦

As for the other one, it's very vague. There's no indication of whether or not there's uncounted civilians, only casualties of the official participants with their source being the notorious massacrer of innocents and burier of truth IDF..

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I think you have a very, very onesided view on this

You can find plenty of articles from October where Hezbollah is proud to declare they were attacking Israel to support Gaza and tie up some of Israel's forces

You can find plenty of articles about how almost all civilians in Southern Lebanon have been evacuated.

There's no indication of whether or not there's uncounted civilians, only casualties of the official participants with their source being the notorious massacrer of innocents and burier of truth IDF..

The information you're disputing is not coming from the IDF but directly from Hezbollah themselves, on both these issues

[–] timestatic@feddit.org 2 points 3 months ago

I share your opinion. I don't think its worth continuing to debate that guy as you'll never come to a conclusion. It doesn't really matter what one thinks of the civilian tragedy in Gaza when it comes to whether or not Israel is fighting Hezbollah defensively. In support of Hamas they started sending more bombs in the northern border of Israel so the IDF followed suite to prevent Hezbollah.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world -2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I think you have a very, very onesided view on this

Yeah, I do. Because some things aren't about sides but about whether or not something is factually accurate.

I'm on the "side" of not doing free PR for known liars whether they be Israel claiming they never did anything wrong, or terrorists bragging without evidence.

almost all civilians in Southern Lebanon have been evacuated.

Guess what? Forced relocation is in itself a war crime. Forcing people out of their homes so that needlessly bombing them to rubble won't look as bad as it otherwise would is NOT a kindness.

The information you're disputing is not coming from the IDF but directly from Hezbollah themselves, on both these issues

So you keep claiming without any source except "trust me, dude" 🙄

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So you keep claiming without any source except "trust me, dude" 🙄

It's quite interesting, you asked for sources so I gave you some a couple posts up, but your reaction just comes down to "well yeah everyone is always lying so why would I believe that?"

[–] brianary@startrek.website 5 points 3 months ago

This is some George W Bush doublespeak.

[–] Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

You cannot "pre-emptively" defend yourself, an attack to head off a suspected attack is still an attack.

Other than that semantic nitpick, personally I'm there with you.. However, you cannot seriously be pointing this out without also recognizing that Israel is very much the initial offender in any conflict that arises as direct result of their actions in gaza.

If I let a bully sucker punch me so I have an excuse to beat up all the people around them, and then someone else close by hits me, I can't honestly say I am the one who is defending myself.

[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 months ago

I think the purpose of the word "pre-emptive" is to describe a situation where one side appears to attack first but that side is actually acting to prevent an attack against itself. Consider a less controversial situation: Ukraine launched drones into Russia in order to blow up glide bombs in storage at Russian airbases. I suppose that could be described as a "pre-emptive attack" but I still see it as an act of self-defense.

With regard to your second point: Hezbollah has agency. They weren't just helplessly carried along by events in Gaza; they chose to get involved. Their choice was predictable, but it was still theirs. One could argue that it was justified (and Hezbollah would certainly argue that it was justified) but justification is a matter of opinion and even if an attack is considered justified, the defender is still, well, defending.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Israel attacked Lebanon first not the other way around.