So then, where is the barrier? Is this an argument based in Moralism, or Materialism? The Proletariat can and must do whatever it can to improve its own conditions, and in the absence of a state that provides for it, this must be done via the Market.

I agree that Workers, especially Marxists, should try to reduce their harmful footprints as much as possible. Boycott union busters and supporters of genocide. However, when it comes to retirement savings, there exist no ethical ways to move forward, except to live entirely off the grid and refuse to use banking systems.

Unfortunately, this can lead to reactionary behavior, a turning back of the clock to an earlier stage of Capitalism. That's why homesteading has a huge fascism problem.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't think it's productive to say investing is antithetical to leftism, considering the context. That would be like saying purchasing video games is antithetical to leftism, as they are for personal enjoyment yet support Capitalists. I try to think in terms of Dialectics and what materially benefits the proletariat, and ultimately if it becomes a matter of purity testing I believe we lose sight of the goals of Communism.

I dunno, this became a bit of a ramble. I'll end this with a fun quote:

“The moment anyone started to talk to Marx about morality, he would roar with laughter.”

[–] mayo_cider@hexbear.net 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I guess I haven't been clear enough in this thread, I completely agree with you

Retirement funds are an example of unavoidable participation in capitalism, but that doesn't mean that it's compatible with a socialist world view

Investing is and will always be antithetical to the immortal science, the goal is to make gains from other people's work

I have money on pension and insurance funds that use all available investment vehicles to maximize their profits, I have to compromise my values to get a (significant) portion of my produced value back because some libs thought that everyone should be an investor instead of feeding and housing old people as a right

[–] Cowbee@hexbear.net 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Investing is and will always be antithetical to the immortal science, the goal is to make gains from other people's work

Yes, in principle, however in the context of the western proletariat who must engage with the market to ensure their own existence, I do not consider it anti-leftist to give investment advice. Only if it supports landlordism or business ownership outright.

I have money on pension and insurance funds that use all available investment vehicles to maximize their profits, I have to compromise my values to get a (significant) portion of my produced value back because some libs thought that everyone should be an investor instead of feeding and housing old people as a right

I don't believe this structure is because of Liberal ideas, but an attempt by Capitalists to tie Workers' futures to the same mechanism that enriches Capitalists, therefore reducing revolutionary pressure. This is a consequence of Imperialism, it's an effort to turn the Proletariat into complicit Labor Aristocracy.

[–] mayo_cider@hexbear.net 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes, in principle, however in the context of the western proletariat who must engage with the market to ensure their own existence, I do not consider it anti-leftist to give investment advice.

I completely agree, the whole point I've tried to make in this thread is that A) investment is antithetical to leftist thought and B) most of us are still forced to participate in it

If you try to optimize your forced investments, I will look down on you

[–] sub_ubi@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

So you can have retirement accounts, but moving money in those accounts to a better fund is immoral?

[–] mayo_cider@hexbear.net 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Any capital gains from the work of others is immoral, the forced participation in investments is (currently) unavoidable

Billionaires and politicians have addresses

[–] sub_ubi@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

What do you mean by forced?