Hmm... this makes me uncomfortable, and although I don't think it's internalized phobia or anything like that, I want to interrogate that discomfort to see if I can nail it down.

I do think it's difficult or maybe impossible to decouple this practice from indications of power for most people. The only instances of capitalized pronouns in common use that I've seen are the God and Jesus usage, and in some circles, capitalizing pronouns for a dominant in a role play context. "I" getting capitalized is also there, kind of, but that's not a power thing because it's not special, everyone is expected to use it as a language rule. I've also seen things like "oh, sure, that's what They want you to think" or, not quite a pronoun, something like "they want you to fear The Other," maybe less of a power thing but definitely a signal of additional weight and meaning above and beyond the word's usual sense.

I think this is the main source of my discomfort, that this practice is currently used almost exclusively at least as "this word is being used in a special and important context, pay extra attention" and going as far as "I am explicitly signaling that the person being referred to is superior." I don't use He/Him pronouns for God or Jesus because I don't belong to those religions and don't see those entities that way, and I have a fundamental belief in the equality of all humans that makes me uncomfortable putting a person on a pedestal like that.

I feel uncomfortable about it/its pronouns as well for the same reason, I don't like the idea of dehumanizing or objectifying a person, but in that case I actually have some friends who use them. It's easier to take a "well, if it makes you happy, it's no harm to me" attitude if it's asking for a "demotion" so to speak, I think. The personal connection probably does help too, I don't know anyone who wants capitalized pronouns myself.

I've seen Dan Savage use capital pronouns to refer to dominants when answering letters, but that seems to me like Dan stepping into the letter writer's scene space and choosing to go along with the "rule" while he's there giving advice, kind of a "good houseguest" thing. I don't think that's something that the rest of us are obligated to do as a rule. I'd push back on a friend insisting that I refer to their dominant with capitalized pronouns, because whatever their relationship is with each other, their dom isn't my dom, and I didn't agree to that hierarchy, they did.

I think the other discomfort is more of a language and grammar thing, which obviously is less important than an actual person's comfort (see also, the old "they is always plural" chestnut) so I'm not going to assert that this is a reason to disregard a person's wishes, and language rules are subject to change. But in general capitalization is not all that significant in English, which we know because something written in all caps or in all lower case usually has no meaning removed. Words at the start of sentences, proper nouns, and "I" get capitalized, and that's mostly it. It's mostly about readability, because ALL CAPS DOESN'T HAVE AS MUCH CONTRAST but when used sparingly as we usually do, important words stand out with a capital letter. "Demanding" that a particular word be used to refer to yourself in the form of pronouns is in the same ballpark as choosing your own name, obviously completely reasonable and acceptable, but "demanding" that special language rules be used about yourself feels a step beyond that. I don't want to cross into "oh so could you identify as an attack helicopter too" territory, but I do wonder about some of the boundaries on this. Lots of people habitually write in all lowercase, would it be disrespectful to say "oh yeah i saw larry at the empire state building and had a conversation with him" if Larry uses He/Him pronouns? Would Larry be upset about both the name and pronouns, or just the pronouns? I don't think most people would get up in arms about their proper name getting de-capitalized in that context which seems like further evidence that capitalization isn't normally a meaningful aspect of the writing, it's a more mechanical and practical rule, so insisting that for certain people it does need to be made significant feels like more of an imposition to me, and comes right back to the "you need to treat Me as special and more important" feeling that I have.

[–] Ava@beehaw.org 7 points 5 months ago (1 children)

To delve into a slight tangent on your final point about the grammatical quirk of writing in all-lowercase, I'm curious as to your thoughts on a related question. What of an individual who prefers their name be written with lowercase letters? To use my own handle as an example, imagine that I requested that others refer to me as "ava" rather than "Ava", and had styled my display name accordingly. Does your opinion vary depending on whether it's a chosen name as opposed to a handle?

I have someone in my circles who prefers her name be written thusly, and while I occasionally find her somewhat inappropriately (unfairly? rashly? my vocabulary fails me at present...) militant about the topic when strangers err, I have no opposition to using the name for her as she requests, whereas I comparatively share your reservations about the use of capitalized pronouns and their associations with dynamics of power/relationship between parties.

I wonder too how I might feel should a requested name require other deviations from standard grammar, such as unusual punctuation. Were I to identify myself as "Ava!" it would certainly cause some occasionally grammatical frustrations, but I wonder if a reason given might affect the perception either in favor or against adoption. For example, the Sharks! installation rather literally evokes exclamation through its name.

[–] Zorind@beehaw.org 8 points 5 months ago (1 children)

As an example, the author/activist bell hooks’ pen name was requested to be stylized in lower case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/bell_hooks

In her case, she wanted people to focus on her writing rather than her name. Often times, even at the start of a sentence, you’ll see news articles lowercase her name.

To your latter point, I think the reason given definitely does influence my feelings on the matter - I’m comfortable giving someone “de-emphasis” when requested out of respect, or referring to someone by their preferred pronouns out of general respect as well. However, I do have lines that feel uncomfortable to cross, that I wouldn’t cross, such as a white person preferring to be called “Master”.

[–] Rekhyt@beehaw.org 3 points 5 months ago

Correct spelling of a name is also very different than spelling of generic pronouns.

[–] Grail@aussie.zone 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I find your comment interesting, and I can't help wanting to try a little experiment with you. See, while I use multiple pronoun sets depending on My mood and fronter, one of My pronoun sets is It/Its. You said you accept it/its because you perceive that pronoun as diminutive, but you're less inclined to accept a pronoun you perceive as indicating superiority. What about both at the same time? What do you think of calling Me an It?

[–] chaos@beehaw.org 7 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Ooh, interesting. I'm kind of surprised to find that I do feel more comfortable with It/Its actually, not so much because of the logical "promotion and demotion cancel out" aspect, but because it's two atypical constructions combined, and that almost pushes it out of intuitive meaning entirely for me. I know the context and convention for each one individually but nothing for both of them at the same time, so I think I'm more open to allowing a meaning to be defined that isn't hierarchical if It assures me that it isn't. (Pure grammar bonus points in that last sentence where this type of capitalization happens to remove an ambiguity!) For He/Him and She/Her, though, I find it hard to set aside the established meaning because it's in wide use and has been for quite some time. Maybe that's a rigidity that deserves to be bent, people push back on the more "out there" neopronouns for similar reasons, but I think it's likely that most people will instinctively react negatively when encountering this, and it's going to be difficult for what I have to imagine is a very small group of people to change the general understanding to something more acceptable.

[–] Grail@aussie.zone 3 points 5 months ago

Thank you. I do want My pronouns to be something unlike what people are used to dealing with. I got the idea for My pronouns from My goddess-mother who suggested them, and She has a name that's always lowercase. If you capitalise the first letter of Her name, you're deadnaming Her. Unfortunately I rolled really badly on the preferred name and pronouns stat during character creation, and now I have to deal with preferred pronouns that society chooses to see as a symbol of oppression. I deal with more dysphoria these days than I did when I was closeted, because it hurts a lot worse when someone knows My pronouns and still misgenders Me. There's an intentionality to it that wasn't there before. But I also get more euphoria when people are respectful, so I'm happy with My decision to come out of the closet in contexts like My blog and this account.

I want to circle back to the similarity I drew with transmasculinity in the article. Suppose there's a person, we'll call her Jenny, who refuses to he/him absolutely anyone. She doesn't believe in the male gender at all. Jenny knows that gender is a social construct, and refuses to respect the construct of masculinity, which is rooted in patriarchy. Jenny misgenders every man, trans or cis, that she knows. She respects all kinds of neopronouns and is a nonbinary ally, but she categorically refuses to he/him anyone. Personally, I disagree with Jenny because of all the non-misogynist men out there trying to make masculinity non-toxic. They don't deserve to be misgendered. What do you think of Jenny?