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One of the points of federated and decentralized social media is that there’s no need to profit. The concept is that communities are built by individuals instead of a central institutions and the communal gain is what incentivizes folks to host servers and participate. I see it as a similar ecosystem as the open source software community who constantly gives everything away for free because it serves the common good, enables faster innovation and widens the spread of knowledge that makes everyone more successful/efficient at the end of the day. If these decentralized social networks can provide the same level of benefit as Reddit, I.e. people adding “Reddit” to their search queries to get first hand answers, I think that’s the singularity point at which people will realize giant social network corporations are completely unnecessary. I can’t wait. Seems inevitable to me because the entire business model of the current centralized networks is unsustainable - part of the reason you see Reddit making such drastic moves regarding their API or Meta investing in anything and everything outside of social media or Twitter throwing unnecessary digital products at the wall and hoping people pay for some of them. Once decentralized social networks are mainstream the ad target pool is going to be greatly affected and these companies will collapse under their own weight if they haven’t pivoted to something else.
I think this may be the wrong question. I am the administrator of a reverse engineered PS3 video game server, so it's illegal for me to make a profit or any kind of revenue or donations from that platform. However, I maintain it for thousands of users simply because I and others enjoy it and want it to exist. That's not a sustainable model for a business or for running something as gigantic as reddit, but it's what I want and enjoy, and for right now it's affordable, and I'm happy with that.
People like you make the internet a better place :)
Not counting the cost of your time, how much money do you spend on this server?
Like many said, it's not about profitability but sustainability. I signed up to donate $2 per month to help run the servers for lemmy.world. I'm very happy with this instance (and the fediverse in general) and want to contribute. There are plenty of other people willing to do the same. Together, we will make something much bigger and better than reddit over time.
I love their $8/month tier description: "The $8 verified user tier. You'll be allowed to place a blue checkmark behind your name. You'll have to do that yourself though. And you could also do that without donating ;-)."
Why does everything have to be for profit?
This is the real question we have to ask ourselves. We really need to move away from looking at the internet as just a resource to extract money from, and instead see it through a social lense again. Look what late stage capitalism has done to our digital, social gathering places. Almost everything has become a product that needs to be profitable, to compete for attention and to extract as much data from users as possible and discourse has suffered greatly from it. I mean billions are donated to content creators simply because people want to contribute. Why stop there? We can shape the internet the way we want if we simply contribute and put our heads together. We don't have to make a profit. That's our strength.
I like this take.
Due to life circumstances, I basically live on the internet, and have since the late 90s. My first comment on here was about how I support socialized social media.
I want to go back to a time when I could actually talk to random people, and have meaningful discourse, even if it isn’t as big of a community or as content-filled. I want my social space to be interactive, not passive.
Profit-seeking models push for passive consumption rather than actual meaningful engagement. I’d much rather have a non-profitable platform that people keep alive because they want the same thing I do. I’ll donate to it, as long as it stays that way.
It doesn't have to be profitable. Especially for people that already have computers running 24/7 and good Internet, a Lenny server is just another process they run on their machine. Admin/mod duties would probably be the hardest part.
They're not - Some instances have a clearer funding structure than others. I picked Lemmy.world in part because they have a clear source of donations.
https://opencollective.com/mastodonworld/donate?interval=oneTime&amount=20&name=&legalName=&email=
They're not, and profit isn't the reason people run Lemmy instances. In fact, avoiding the problems that arise when human communication is capitalized upon is a driving theme behind open source software and federated social media.
They aren't. Do they need to be, though? Maybe once the scale gets gargantuan, but even then - is it strictly necessary to be profitable? As long as donations cover costs, I assume most instance administrators want what the rest of us want - a good platform for discussion and content aggregation.
I am a proud monthly donor. My couple of bucks I send Ruud and the admin team every month helps make this corner of the internet a reality.
So, that's how it's funded.
If you're able, please consider sending in a donation. You can do so at Open Collective or Patreon.
Help out a sprout?
Both those links go to Mastodon not Lemmy. Am I right in assuming that your account Is on an instance that hosts both? Probably federating with M before feasting with L next?
Good question. The dude who hosts lemmy.world started by hosting mastodon.world. So all of his patreon/crowdfunding is under mastodon.world, but it’s all going to the same pool of server costs that pay for lemmy as well. He’s pretty cool, actually, posts transparency reports on a regular basis.
I'm pretty sure Lemmy has been designed specifically so it can't me monetized. If you try to place ads people can just switch to another instance. If you try to split off from the fediverse I'm pretty sure there's enough data on other instances in order to clone your server along with its content (and mind that you don't own the copyright for posts made by users).
They're not, it's just donations so far. Reddit actually used to profit from donations only too about 10+ years ago and had a bar showing how much they earned every day vs how much they need to run the servers.
The short answer is it really isn't profitable, and will be hard to ever be profitable simply because of how it is indeed run by donations.
Being able to spread the load over many independent instances does help to spread that load.
Any Lemmy/fediverse instance could come up with a localized monetization scheme for people that browse through it, but it wouldn't affect other instances (or if they were injecting ads into feeds, they'll just get blocked by everyone else), but for the most part, it's got more of an IRC server vibe, no monetization needed when community volunteers are plentiful and the barrier to entry is low. Eventually 'big boys' like Lemmy.world will want a more formal and reliable way of paying for their server and bandwidth needs beyond primarily unsolicited donations ($ and time) by volunteers.
These are not profit generating services, they are community services. For now.
I mean, Wikipedia does it and they're the 7th most visited website on the internet. 🤷
Donations, or with a small enough instance a server admin might just pay out of his or her own pocket. Maybe if Lemmy were ever to get much bigger there might be paid or ad-supported instances.
I think a big part of the point of federation is that the costs of hosting servers can be distributed so no one has to spend millions to keep their server running. That way there is less of a need to monetise an instance (and less of an incentive, as if you start doing anti-user stuff, people can just move to a different instance).
Things can be valuable without being profitable. A hug from someone you love does not generate any profit but is still a good thing that should exist. Likewise, a community resource like a Lemmy instance does not need to justify it's existence by being profitable. It can simply exist as something that people get value from. The fact that we often lose sight of this is a result of living in a capitalistic society that over-emphasises the value of something producing profit and underemphasises any other possible value. As for the implied question of, how does a Lemmy instance get the money to pay the costs required to run it? That's going to vary from one instance to another and how that money is raised should be a factor in which one you sign up to and which ones you connect with. In the case of Lemmy.world, it is, afaik, presently (and likely in the future) run as a non-profit for it's own inherent value and is funded by user donations. A big point of federated communities is to allow those communities to be able to operate for their own benefit, rather than be reliant on commercial investment that will later create a tension of different incentives.
i contribute to patreons of lemmy.world and the developers of lemmy. hopefully there’s makes enough of us to make this financially viable
Same :)
The funny thing is that not all human endeavours actually need to be profitable for them to exist. It's perfectly fine and normal for people to be generous and provide services for the community for nothing in return and for some of those in the community to help out too.
It isn't atm
It will probably never be. Because it is never intended to be a platform for profit, but a (finally, real) place for everyone to hang out. In turn, everyone contribute content, money, code, and/or time to keep this place alive.
It is really pretty grim that we are conditioned to think that our internet NEEDS to benefit a corporate and its millionaire shareholders.
This has come up multiple times in recent weeks, naturally, but it's interesting that it's always framed as being about profitability. As if simply being affordable or sustainable isn't enough.
Communities being a source of free value for the server admin is always baked into the discussion.
Centralized, corporate social media has done... bad things for how we see and interact with the world.
I'm donating $5 to the Lemmy devs and $5 to Lemmy.world currently on patreon.
Reddit the company has never been profitable either, it ran on VC investments for years. But more accurately, the real Reddit, the communities, never needed to be profitable because it was run out of passion for the subject matter of the subreddit. The former isn't a problem for the fediverse because there isn't an entity overseeing everything, the latter sorts itself out naturally as more motivated individuals join this community.
Lemmy has so far made $0 total profit. So that makes them substantially more profitable than Reddit.
The word you're looking for is sustainable, not profitable
Is that you Huffman?
"lemmy only counts users who posted or commented as active users."
What exactly did this mean? What are the benefits of being an "active" user, or the drawbacks for not? Does that impact the effectiveness of that user's up/downvotes, or something?
This is just for the statistics that show the number of active users on a platform/instance/community level.
It's just used as a way to count users per server, I believe. People who aren't commenting could be bots or just unused accounts.
The admin of my local lemmy instance is very transparent about hosting costs and has a ko-fi for donations. Last I saw there were enough funds to last several months but I have seen additional activity on the donations since. They have a strong focus on a geographic community and it looks like there is no shortage of people happy to contribute because of the need that fills.
It depends on the instance, some don't have much of a reason to exist and are probably going to be an out of pocket thing for a sole operator as a hobby project until they lose a job or get bored. Others are going to have some more structured organization running them with some sort of funding structure.
Long term, I see business opportunities for ad supported or paid instances with enterprise level management (reliability, maintenance, scaling, backup). The important factor is that they can’t lock you in - if you decide you don’t like the policies at your current instance, go find a new one.
I suspect we may also see more instances focused on very specific topics to keep operating cost down.
Agree, and such instances would be more resilient to federation issues. I think communities should be spread out on small instances, while users are concentrated on larger instances with better infrastructure.
Another important factor to note is it takes a fraction of hosting power to host lemmy vs something like reddit, because reddit does an insane amount of power hungry tracking in the background. Lemmy (and apps like jebora) don't collect anything, so don't need to constantly stream all that data to the main server instance