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Baldur's Gate 3

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Baldur’s Gate 3 is a story-rich, party-based RPG set in the universe of Dungeons & Dragons, where your choices shape a tale of fellowship and betrayal, survival and sacrifice, and the lure of absolute power. (Website)

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[SPOILER] Thoughts on that final ally choice (lemmy.blahaj.zone)
submitted 2 months ago by audrbox@lemmy.blahaj.zone to c/baldurs_gate_3@lemmy.world
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Major spoilers for ending of BG3:

!This is my first playthrough where Lae'zel wants to free Orpheus (and not just to immediately kill him) so the choice of whether or not to do so is harder than just "do I trust the Emperor or not?". I'm definitely not the first to feel weird about the options you're given here and how they play out in terms of The Emperor's actions, but I thought it'd be fun to write out my headcanon for the direction I wish I could have taken the conversation (a direction I believe would stay true to what Larian intended with this scene). !<

  • !After your character indicates they want to free Orpheus and The Emperor gives its speech about trust, your character can say "I trust you, but we can't let Orpheus be killed. We need to find another way."!<

  • !The Emperor responds "There is no other way. An Illithid is needed to dominate the Netherbrain, and I cannot exist outside of the astral prism without absorbing the protection provided by Orpheus."!<

  • !You can respond "What if Orpheus is willing to protect you? He could be freed and we could still be shielded from the Netherbrain."!<

  • !The Emperor: "I told you: to Orpheus, you are Illithid. If you free him, he will kill you. Right after he kills me."!<

  • !You can then make a persuasion check with a DC influenced by how much you've shown The Emperor trust thus far: "He will see reason. And if he doesn't, I will subdue him again. I won't let him hurt us."!<

  • !If unsuccessful, The Emperor doesn't believe you, and you're brought back to the original dialogue options.!<

  • !If successful, The Emperor will guardedly agree to let you free Orpheus. However, it doesn't trust that Orpheus will protect it if it leaves the astral prism, so it will refuse to go with you.!<

  • !When Orpheus is freed, he will initially be hostile toward The Emperor and threaten to kill it for imprisoning him. You can pass a high persuation or intimidation check to convince him to see reason and work together for the common cause. Otherwise, you can side with him against The Emperor and help him kill it, or you can fight Orpheus. If the latter, you must knock him out; if you kill him, you get a Game Over.!<

  • !If you convince Orpheus to stand down, you are then presented with the same choice as you would if you'd freed Orpheus without convincing The Emperor to stay. However, The Emperor becomes a powerful callable ally in the ensuing battle. It continues communicating with your party, and it has a tense but nonviolent interaction with Orpheus after the Netherbrain is defeated.!<

  • !If you subdue Orpheus, Lae'zel is angry, but she will reluctantly agree in light of Orpheus's hostility that The Emperor consuming him is the only option.!<

  • !If you help Orpheus kill The Emperor, the scene will proceed as if The Emperor abandoned you.!<

!What do y'all think? Does this seem realistic, or am I off with any of the characters? What's your headcanon for this scene? !<

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[–] zaph@sh.itjust.works 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The problem is that the relationship with the emperor is entirely one sided. We're demanded to trust it but any time we ask for trust we're told the emperor knows best. It's too set in its ways and selfish to even consider trusting our judgement. Minsc is the only time the emperor really helps us because we ask and even then it's under threat from jahera that does the trick. Think of it this way, the emperor would rather help the netherbrain than risk trusting us. Ain't no coming back from that.

[–] audrbox@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You may be right. I just think that's a weird characterization for some of the themes the game seems to be going for, or at least I feel like they could have done more to cement that characterization and tie it to those themes. Like so much of the game asks questions about freedom, survival, and the way reciprocal trust interacts with those things- see the stories of Shadowheart, Lae'zel, Astarion, etc. This scene could have been an affirmation of how those other stories answer those questions (by convincing The Emperor to trust you despite everything), or it could have been a brutal rebuttal of that answer (e.g. maybe it betrays you after you trust it with the stones). Instead, it kind of just shrugs off the questions. Like it doesn't really feel meaningful for The Emperor to act the way it did, even if it's within its character, if that makes any sense.

[–] zaph@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Absolutely makes sense. It feels like they had more planned or even completed but cut and forgot how it would impact the character arcs. Personally I feel like the way the emperor sides with the netherbrain so quickly suggests that it wants to take control but when you side with the emperor it just ends the netherbrain. I fully expected to have another fight at the end.

[–] CaptPretentious@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago

This would be true. During Early Access a lot of the game had different story elements. Stuff that didn't come to light until release. But through data mining and through the Magic: The Gathering cards you can gleam a little of what was originally planned.

For instance, originally, there was no Dream Guardian. There was only "Daisy"

[–] CaptPretentious@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So, since it's you're first play through, you might be missing a bit of information/lore.

spoilerThe Emperor, if you select certain dialog options in one of the 1:1 conversations with him, he's completely self serving and has been lying to you from the beginning. He sees you as his thrall, as a means to an end. A lot of the backstory he's told you, as many of the interactions with him, has been half truths at best. There's no way he'd partner up with Orpheus as Orpheus is going to see right through the lies and want him dead. Orpheus wants you dead too, but due to the threat at hand reluctantly partners with you. And the Raphael is the one that imprisoned Orpheus in the first place, so once released, the Emperor is screwed.

[–] audrbox@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 months ago

!It's actually my third playthrough, just my first where I progressed Lae'zel's story to the point where she rejects Vlaakith and wants Orpheus freed lol. And I may be in the minority here, but even after seeing all of The Emperor's shitty dialog, I see it as more complex than that. It's self serving and manipulative for sure, but I do think it believes it is being honest and acting in your best interest. Its dialog about illusion being a part of Illithid nature strikes me as it being quite candid and an indication that while its sense of morality is maybe alien to non-Illithids, it does at least somewhat trust you. That's the mentality I had in coming up with these dialog options. You're never going to convince The Emperor to act against its own survival and interests (hence it still refusing to leave the astral prism), but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibilities that you could convince it to trust you with its life in return for you trusting it with yours. I feel like that would be a more interesting thematic capstone to the whole Emperor story.!<