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No subject in American politics exhibits our reliance on strawman more than the abortion debate. (kbin.social)

submitted 1 year ago by Metaright@kbin.social to c/politics@kbin.social

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Pro-lifers hate women and want to control their bodies. Pro-choicers hate babies and care about their own convenience more than the lives of children.

Or, alternatively, pro-lifers honestly, truly believe that fetuses are children, in which case it is obviously the proper choice to restrict abortion. Pro-choicers honestly, truly believe that personhood does not begin at conception, in which case there's little room for abortion to be ethically wrong.

Until both sides start addressing each other's actual arguments, this subject is not going to cool off. You won't convince a pro-lifer who sees fetuses as children by wrongly claiming they want to control women. You won't convince a pro-choicer who sees personhood as developing later by insisting that they are a godless baby-killer.

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[–] exohuman@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I agree. That’s why I think pro-lifers should not be allowed to get abortions and pro-choicers should be allowed to. Problem solved, and no one’s freedoms are infringed.

So many social solutions can be handled this way too. Don’t like gay people? Don’t be gay, but don’t stand in the way of others who are. Drinking is against your religion? Don’t drink, but don’t stop others from drinking. Most of our problems with these debates is that people try to impose their rules and limitations on others and that simply isn’t fair.

[–] Metaright@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I don't think you really got my point. If you truly, honestly believed that doing something resulted in the death of a child, of course you'd want to prevent anyone from doing it. We already have a law against murder, and surely you wouldn't say "then they just shouldn't murder people, but don't try to impose their beliefs on me!"

The point is that, from the perspective that fetuses are children, restricting abortion is the most logical and consistent approach. This is unavoidable, and you can't change their minds if you don't address this. The way to sway a pro-lifer, then, is to demonstrate that a fetus doesn't have personhood.

[–] anathema_device@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

@Metaright "The way to sway a pro-lifer, then, is to demonstrate that a fetus doesn't have personhood."

No, first you have to persuade them that the life of the fetus bearer is worth something more than being an incubator.

Which you will never do.

People who are anti-abortion fanatics may or may not believe that a fetus is a baaaaaby, really. But what they really do not believe in is the personhood of the placenta owner.

And until you find a way to convince them that a real, living, breathing human being with feelings and rights who already exists independently has rights, including that to life unburdened by an unwanted pregnancy for any reason, you won't convince them of anything else.

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