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Help with a player that likes the idea of being a caster, but not the mechanics (lemmy.world)
submitted 10 months ago by godzillabacter@lemmy.world to c/dnd@lemmy.world
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I've been a DM for about 3 years, and have predominantly run one-shots and short campaigns in DnD5e and PF2e. I have a player who persistently builds primary caster based characters, but then won't do anything in combat but "I stab it with my dagger." They rarely use cantrips, and basically won't cast a leveled spell unless I suggest it immediately before their turn. They seem to enjoy playing despite the fact that they're far too squishy to be a front-line melee character and don't utilize most of their class features. I've talked with them explicitly about how their play style seems to be discordant with the kind of play they want to do, and that maybe next time they should try a paladin/champion or a fighter/rougue subclass with some minor casting. They agreed at the time that sounded like a good idea, but low and behold showed up to the next one-shot with a primary caster, and over 3 hours of play and 3 combats never cast a single spell, including a cantrip.

I enjoy playing with this persons as a whole. They are engaged in the fiction, and are particularly engaged during exploration activities. They tell me they also find combat quite fun, and they are requesting I run a mega dungeon in the near future.

As a general rule, I like to let people play how they have the most fun, but issues have arisen with this play style. Namely, all of my TPKs have been associated with this player charging a squishy character directly up to a significantly stronger villain and continuing to stab it with a dagger until they went down, significantly hindering the party in the action economy and resulting in a TPK. I feel I have to intentionally weaken all of my encounters to keep the party feasible in the face of such mechanically poor combat choices.

What else can I do to help drive this individual towards melee builds, and/or help encourage them to change their play style to better suite the caster classes they choose?

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[–] pikasaurX4@lemm.ee 19 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

“I run up and stab it with my dagger!”

“Are you sure? As a wizard, your dagger is very ineffective and puts you in harm’s way. You could cast fire bolt from where you are standing. You’d have a better chance to hit, do more damage, remain safe, and play to your character’s strengths more. Do you want to do that instead?”

“I’m trying to save my spells for an emergency”

“Well fire bolt is a cantrip, so it never runs out and you can use it every turn like a fighter would use their weapon. Cantrips are the ‘auto-attacks’ for spell casters”

I can’t understand your situation OP if the exchange I described above isn’t the solution. I play with newbies and first timers all the time and we constantly strategize in combat so they can learn how to play as we go. Would your player really say “no, I don’t care, I stab them” after being presented with that option? If so, I think they are doing this intentionally because they think it’s funny or interesting, not because they don’t know better

[–] Toes@ani.social 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I've noticed this behaviour in people that are unfamiliar with video games or board games.

They're looking at it, with a very high level approach. Like someone who's reading a book or watching a movie. It's not their character, it's just a character in a big story.

Another variant is the person who is rigidly following the quirk or backstory they've created. Sometimes to a level that they aren't able to critically process. Overlooking it's a cooperative game and that this type of character will not play well with the team.

Another concern is that new players who experience anxiety will take those hints from the DM and act on them like an order. Resulting in the player unplugging from the game and just doing what they're told with minimal comprehension or the type that locks in on their action because it was challenged. (This is what caused me to break up with my bf)

[–] pikasaurX4@lemm.ee 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I can see where you are coming from but OP assures us that this player knows about games and specifically makes caster characters. This isn’t one sorcerer with a quirk in their backstory about never using their magic, this is multiple characters in a row. I play with new players all the time. Maybe an occasional person will take others’ suggestions as law, but if they do the same thing too many times in a row or force themselves to use the move you recommended when it still doesn’t make sense, you just keep guiding them.

“Don’t forget you have other cantrips too. Using fire bolt was a suggestion. In this fight, you could try using your shocking grasp to get away. Or you could use your magic missile for some guaranteed damage on that heavily-armored hobgoblin. It uses one of your slots, but now seems as good a time as any. They’re no good to you when you’re dead.”

The DM and even the other players should be chiming in with suggestions on other players’ turns. It can get annoying when you know how to play and others are telling you what to do, but if you had a fighter player who just stood in combat and took a disengage action every turn, wouldn’t you eventually speak up and suggest they try a dodge or an attack instead?

[–] godzillabacter@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

That's why I came to the community. I feel like I'm a reasonable and half-way experienced DM at this point. The player is aware cantrips are unlimited use. The player is a very intelligent individual. I've had the conversations about spell use. At its core, I genuinely think the player is attracted to the "cool factor" and "aesthetic" of playing a caster but doesn't actually want to engage with any of the mechanics. I can remind the player about spells and that reminder will last for a combat, sometimes less. I feel like I've done everything I know to do aside from straight banning the player from playing full casters or queuing them to cast spells every-other turn, I'm at a loss.

[–] sexual_tomato@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You'll have to start killing their character more often. They want to do front line tactics, they can take front line damage, no softballs. Oh, 1d10 kills you in 3 hits, and the mobs chase you because you're squishy? Damn, maybe get some AC and constitution, or attack from a distance.

[–] godzillabacter@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I go back and forth on this. I feel like I'm enabling these choices by pulling punches. But it feels excessively anti-fun to just kill them and be like "sorry lol be better". I don't think I have the heart to just murder characters all the time.

[–] sexual_tomato@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

There's a difference between punishment and consequences. If you rush into battle with a foam sword and a gun but only use the sword, you're going to get wrecked because you brought the wrong equipment. Try it in BG3 and see how far you get.

[–] teft@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

Try it in BG3 and see how far you get.

My new sword for my next BG3 playthrough:

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Practice_Sword

[–] Avalokitesha@programming.dev 11 points 10 months ago

Do you have the chance to sit the whole group down together and tank about that?

As in, tell them what you told us - you can't dm as you normally would and have to keepepulling punches because he keeps endangering the group and you dont want to punish the group for his bad choices. Remind them that you are supposed to have fun too and dming like you're walking on eggshells is killing yours.

I'm suggesting bringing it up with the whole group because it sounds like you brought it up with the player alone already. Or maybe you have focused too much on how they could play better instevd of how it negatively affects the group. Maybe they need to realize that even if this is fun for them, it's not for you - and maybe not for the others as well.

IMHO, this is something that should be talked trough with the group. Getting less lenient and not weakening your encounters is risking the wole group's fun, so it should be discussed with the group.

Enabling choices per se is a good thing, but if you have to rely on someone for life and death who knows how to shoot a gun, owns it, brings it and yet only uses a knife in the gunfight, it's gonna get you killed. And this should happen. Just make sure everybody knows about this.

Maybe this will spark discussion about why he makes these characters and why he plays them like this. Maybe it can help find something he enjoys. If not, the group is now prepared to die more often and you don't have to pull punches.

[–] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 3 points 10 months ago

"Oh no, you opened an ancient container with a curse that turned your mage into a barbarian. Darn. Better luck next time. Let's keep going"

[–] pikasaurX4@lemm.ee 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

There’s really no right answer here and I don’t think it’s something that we can work through without that player involved in the conversation. It’s not that they don’t know better, it’s not that you haven’t helped them, it’s not that you haven’t made suggestions, and they’ve been doing this for 3 YEARS??? I’m sorry, but this is above my pay grade. I am almost certain there is some detail that I’m missing because this makes zero sense. I have played with veterans of all walks and ages, new players who are 8 years old, new players that are 60 years old, and everywhere in between. It just doesn’t make sense unless there’s more to it.

Sit down with the player again. Ask why they don’t use cantrips. Leave the leveled spells aside for now (saving them forever is a problem, but an understandable one). Continue to remind them every combat, every turn, every time they take out their dagger. I know you said your group doesn’t know the rules well, so maybe it’s time to learn (3 YEARS???). Cantrips and weapons work exactly the same, so I don’t know how “not wanting to engage with the mechanics” has anything to with it. There’s something going on and I can’t be sure what it is without talking to this player themselves

[–] godzillabacter@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's not quite 3 years. I've been DMing for about 3. This player has been playing on-and-off for about 1.5. I have complicated the rules a touch because in the last 8mo or so I've switched to PF2e. I mean this problem in specific isn't that system specific, so I don't think that really excuses it.

But all-in-all you're right. The most effective answer is find another group that is more invested in the game. I'm moving across the country in a few months, so I guess I should just ride the issue out a little longer and then move on, which is a huge bummer. I guess in the meantime I'll try and remind them more regularly and once again have the conversation about "Why?"

Thank you

[–] pikasaurX4@lemm.ee 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Remind them every, single, turn.

“Really? Your dagger? Not your cantrip?”

“Oh yeah, I always forget about those”

If they prefer to use it for thematic or aesthetic reasons, they’ll tell you and the mystery will be solved. Maybe there’s a class that does what they want and you can push them towards it. Or maybe they really are just that forgetful and they just need to be reminded every turn. Consider giving them a character sheet that more obviously shows what they can do. Action cards, spell cards, stuff like that might help too. But ultimately, just don’t let them make a dagger attack. Just stop them and present the better option EVERY TIME. You’ll learn one way or another what they want because they’ll go with it or resist it

And I’m not necessarily saying to find a new group (although it seems like you’ll have no choice since you’re moving). I’m just saying, I cant imagine how you could keep playing with this person and no one at the table is making suggestions on how to play their turns. My players strategize about each others’ turns constantly. It’s a bit meta-gamey, but they’re newer and don’t know all the mechanics well so I never stop them. In fact, I try to help them find the course of action that will make them feel the coolest or the most useful without outright telling them what to do

[–] godzillabacter@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

My table tends to not metagame at all, even in situations I really wish they would. I think of all the answers I've gotten, this is the most reasonable and actionable answer. Just remind the player more often. I'm gonna have to come up with a good way to not sound like a condescending asshole because this is the only player I'm going to have to do it to. It just sucks cause it's one more thing I've gotta do while running combat. But that's life I guess

[–] ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's a tough spot to be in, having tried to coach them towards what would work. They might find being a martial class if they see great success in it. Perhaps a one shot where the players are all some martial build, to show how successful their playstyle would be with the right tools.

Another idea is to suggest classes like Monk or a psywarrior which can use "magic" but are more durable to hits and can skip their powers without losing 80% of their contribution to the fight.

Finally you can lean into it and have them play characters that are conscientious objectors to magic or are scared of it but they have a gift/been railroaded by their guardians. The party can adapt and roleplay around it and maybe encourage the player (in character no less) to use their abilities.

Hopefully one of these helps!

[–] Xiaz@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

I mean, from what OP said it kinda sounds like the player wants to be a Sparking Targe Magus to me and just doesn’t know it exists

[–] spartanatreyu@programming.dev 16 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

The solution is simple: Remove the dagger mid-combat.

You could make the dagger too hot to hold and it falls out of reach (off a mountain, into rushing water, etc...)

You could make the dagger dissolve away (through lava, acid, being eaten, etc...)

You could make something take the dagger (disarming, stealing, etc...)

A hag/genie/etc could place a curse on the PC (holding anything makes them experience immense pain and drop what they're holding, anything dagger they hold is turned into a spoon, etc...)

[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Heat Mefal

[–] CaptainBlagbird@lemmy.world 16 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Is the player choosing a caster for "cosmetic" reasons, or because they don't know better (like recycling the last character sheet)?

If the first, then maybe they could play a character who disguises as caster, or something along the lines.

If it's the latter, then they would probably appreciate it if you helped them create a new character from scratch together.

[–] The_Lopen@sh.itjust.works 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I kind of thought half the reason for the class based system was to appeal to specific fantasies/wish fulfillments, though. My first thought concerning this problem is that maybe they're playing the wrong caster class, different classes exist for different fantasies.

It's my personal belief that the mechanics of the caster classes don't lend themselves well to the fantasy of it.

[–] Droechai@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago

Does there exist something similar to a spell sword? https://dndtools.net/classes/spellsword/

That might help with melee caster issue :)

[–] dom@lemmy.ca 3 points 10 months ago

Melee character disguised as a caster made me think of this https://images.app.goo.gl/gtWUQgs7VZYSZDux6

[–] chetradley@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Lots of good advice here already, but I would also suggest this: if they like playing a spellcaster but aren't very familiar with the spells available, spell cards could be very helpful. If you don't want to buy official ones, there are sites where you can print your own. I did this for one of our players and it helped her a ton.

[–] XeroxCool@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This sounds best. Half these answers are off-putting for someone not well-versed in the game, for someone who probably has more experience with the dork clique stereotype of DnD rather than near-personal experience. Asking the group if this person's play style is detrimental to their fun will reinforce that. I don't see anywhere here where OP actually asks why they don't cast. Are they picking the spells strategically or just guessing? Do they want to be a caster or just wear a robe and have a beard?

[–] chetradley@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Exactly. The way I see it, there are a few possibilities:

They like the wizard aesthetic but prefer melee combat. Seems unlikely since you'd think they would have picked a different class and flavored them as an inept magic user.

They want to play this funny character idea at the expense of their party. Dick move but also seems far-fetched considering how good they are as a player otherwise.

They want to be a useful spellcaster but they haven't gotten a grasp of the rules quite yet. I'm really leaning towards this being the case, especially considering this:

They rarely use cantrips, and basically won't cast a leveled spell unless I suggest it immediately before their turn.

So they want to use spells but they're unsure of the best time and place to use them? As a DM I'm thinking: ok, lets get you some spell cards so you have descriptions handy, maybe share your spell list with other players so they can help you decide what to use and I'll do my best to remind you of which spells work best in different scenarios!

[–] theinspectorst@kbin.social 10 points 10 months ago

Could they play a Hexblade warlock?

[–] Mok98@feddit.it 10 points 10 months ago (1 children)

How about making a character that fakes being a caster, and like treats everybody like they don't deserve to see his magic meanwhile he's actually a rogue? Looks and behaves like a caster, is just still useful in combat

[–] yamdwich@kbin.social 4 points 10 months ago

Muscle wizard, go go go.

[–] dgilbert@lemmy.ca 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

You're obviously aware of their playstyle, and if they aren't very well versed in the rules, maybe you could roll a couple of melee focused spellcaster (Hexblade Warlock, Bladesinger Wizard, etc) options for them and have them choose from one of them rather than relying on them to come up with something on their own? They'd still have some agency, but would play a character that better suits their playstyle.

Oh, and make sure the options don't have a dagger in their equipment list. 😄

[–] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Play hardball, they're squishy, break some bones if they don't use their spells and run at things I'n cloth instead of plate.

[–] DScratch@sh.itjust.works 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

If Player is receptive to directions in the moment, perhaps a queue card would help.

Stuff like;

Positioning: As a caster, you are easy to hit and have relatively low HP. Try to stay 15-30ft away from the nearest enemy. -Relevant Abilities:

    • 30ft Movement
    • Disengage (1 x Action)
    • Misty Step (1 x Bonus Action, 1 x level 2 Spell Slot)

Damage:

Healing:

Support:

[–] godzillabacter@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

This is a great thought, I'll definitely give it some thought

[–] WindyRebel@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

The player obviously is stubborn and won’t apply what you’ve told them.

Kill their character. Their wizard with high intelligence wants to melee? The monsters are smart and they see the robe guy who gets stabbed easily - so that’s what they do. All. Of. Them.

Kill, kill, kill. Then have a chat with them after about why this happened. Let them know they know how to play the game but actions have consequences and the monsters are smart. You’ve let them have their learning curve and now there are stakes.

[–] derphurr@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

They break their fingers and can no longer hold a dagger. Luckily this injury doesn't impact their spellcasting abilities.

Also I want to say that it would be normal for most big baddies to laugh at a 10 hp robe wearing mage poking them to ignore them and laugh like a 5 yr old kicking at their feet. They maybe don't have to smite them immediately.

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[–] Tyrangle@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Why would a player drawn to spellcasters prefer weapon attacks over cantrips? I think that's the question we need to focus on.

Are they having trouble finding spells that fit the theme of their character? If so, maybe they'd benefit from looking at a wider range of source books. You can also remind them that they can "reflavor" their spells to better fit their character.

Is it utility magic that draws them to spellcasters? Are they even choosing offensive spells to begin with? If not, maybe you can help them out with a magic item - something to guarantee that they have access to a spell or two that would benefit the party. You could also shift some of the danger towards non-combat encounters to give their spells more value. For what it's worth I don't think there's anything wrong with utility-focused characters - they just tend not to shine as much in one-shots. Maybe if they knew more about the adventure ahead of time, they could better cater their character to the situations they're likely to face.

Are they overwhelmed by their character sheet? If so, playing short campaigns starting from level 1 might help to ease them into their class abilities. Spell cards might also be helpful if you're playing tabletop.

[–] godzillabacter@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They generally pick combat focused spells, minimal utility cantrips/leveled spells. But then don't use them. When they have utility cantrips, they rarely use them outside of combat (like won't cast detect magic to look for things, won't use prestidigitation for intimidation, etc).

[–] grabyourmotherskeys@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

Modeling themselves after Tolkien where magic is only used in the direst of circumstances, maybe?

[–] Mechanismatic@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Appropriate: https://youtu.be/vr_FPbAHids?si=sLBGiN0IShtyseoS

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

VLDL is fantastic

[–] godzillabacter@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Accurate, just less hostile 😂

[–] init@lemmy.ml 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This sounds like someone that doesn't take the time to read and understand the mechanics of their chosen class or the spells and how they work. That's unfortunate.

Have you discussed how their actions are impacting the other players, and that their play is leading to the deaths of their friends? They may not realize how irritating it can be from the friends' point of view.

It seems as though they want a wizard-warrior, almost like a Jedi--who fights with swords, but has magic spells too. There are many ways to achieve this character idea and I'm sure you're more aware of them than I, but it could be as simple as a fighter with the magic adept feat.

[–] godzillabacter@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (12 children)

I haven't explicitly stated "your poor choices are killing your friends" but after the last TPK, they were sad and I apologized for killing them, but then immediately went into a discussion of "you know you were fully rested for this, why didn't you use any of your more powerful spells?"

Unfortunately none of my players are exceptionally well versed in the rules of the system/their characters. They know the basics well enough. Unfortunately they (and I) have very demanding professional lives and reading a rule book is too low on their priority list to ever make it to the top.

I totally agree that the individual would be better suited to an eldritch knight, Paladin, arcane trickster rouge, etc. We've had that discussion twice, and it seems to go over well and they agree, until the next session comes up and they have made another caster character.

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