this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
328 points (95.8% liked)

Privacy

32177 readers
574 users here now

A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.

Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.

Some Rules

Related communities

much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

There is this common narrative I see all the time, implying that we as individuals are empowered to choose and manifest our own destiny, and this comes up often in privacy discussions.

Don't like Facebook's privacy nightmares? Just don't use Facebook!

Don't like personalized ads? I remember a popular post on reddit saying "if your ad interrupts my YouTube video, I will hate your product".

Don't like Google chrome hegemony? Just use Firefox!

And while I agree that we should strive to do that, the battle doesn't end here. Facebook has shadow accounts for people who never signed up. Google chrome keeps it's hegemony despite people on the Internet advocating Firefox day and night. And ads continue to be extremely profitable despite you "hating the product" because it interrupted your YouTube video.

Even worse: even if you "hate the product", you now already know it. You now know they product exists, and possibly whatever they wanted you to know about it. The reality is that these companies own your eyes. They control what shows up on your screen. And even if you hate it, they control what you end up learning.

the reality is that our individual resistance is very far from enough

I am not saying it is completely futile. It is a step in the right direction. But the only effective solution is organized action. We, alone, cannot achieve much. Unless we organize our resistance against privacy violations, we will continue to live through this privacy nightmare.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] F4stL4ne@programming.dev 78 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So go vote, be in unions, call your representative about these matters.

This should be how the message ends.

[–] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 20 points 1 year ago

Not only this. Just by existing and living like this around your friends, family, and coworkers and they'll notice and get interested. In the span of a year of just using Linux, firefox, adblockers, password managers, and email aliases I've unintentionally gotten the attention of two of my friends and they've now started on their privacy and security journey. I share privacy articles around to my friends because I think they should be aware that stuff like 23andme can leak your entire genome and could be targeted for a racially motivated attack. Just exist and share it around with people around you and some may catch on.

[–] cyclohexane@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Unions, sure.

Voting and calling representatives is a futile approach. They're a distraction at best. Unions are an example of what I mean by uniting our efforts and taking action.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] folkrav@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

"Go vote" and "call your representative" presupposes you both believe there's a genuine, believably electable option out there that's gonna really fight for you on this subject, and that the electoral system you live in is legitimately going to represent your vote. There's an argument to be made against both points, depending on where you live.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] netchami@sh.itjust.works 19 points 1 year ago (14 children)

There are definitely some steps you can take for your personal privacy. Get a phone with GrapheneOS, use LibreWolf as your browser, switch from Windows/Mac to Linux, use a DNS filter like NextDNS and try to communicate with people over Signal. You can also use a reputable VPN like IVPN or Mullvad and switch away from Google/Big Tech services (Google search -> DuckDuckGo, Gmail -> ProtonMail, Microsoft Office -> LibreOffice, Google Drive -> Proton Drive, YouTube -> Odysee, etc.)

[–] RangerAndTheCat@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Is IVPN and Mullvad better than ProtonVPN ?

[–] netchami@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They allow for anonymous registration without an Email address. They just give you an Account ID. They also allow you to sign up via Tor. Mullvad even has an onion site.

[–] hackris@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just chiming in, that the biggest selling point of Mullvad (and IVPN also, I think) is the possibility to pay with cash-by-mail or with crypto. Also, Proton has an onion site, too (at least I used it for ProtonMail, not sure if it's for Drive too).

[–] netchami@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Proton has an onion site for Proton Mail, (not sure if it's for Proton VPN as well) but it's a huge pain in the butt to sign up for an account. They often require email or sometimes SMS verification. Also, they redirect you back to the clear web page for the sign up process. It's less than ideal. I use Proton Mail and I pay for it, so I also get Proton VPN but it only use it for torrenting. For all other things I use IVPN and I'm pretty happy with them. Customer support is great btw.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] pathief@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I personally feel like Mullvad provides a better, faster and cheaper service than Proton. However, Proton has other very interesting products such as ProtonMail, ProtonPass and Drive. I'm interested in all that, so I ended up moving to Proton.

I don't have a single bad thing to say about Mullvad, excellent service and pricing policy.

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] alufers@links.aa4.eu 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I want to add to this: In my country (Poland, but probably many others) you are sometimes almost forced to be tracked by FAANG companies. For example our mObywatel app, which can be uses as driver's license replacement requires you to download it via Google Play and have Google Services installed. Of course it uses firebase to send notifications.

[–] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Firebase really is the curse of modern software development

[–] Omniraptor@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Could you eli5 what's bad about it?

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ALostInquirer@lemm.ee 17 points 1 year ago

You're aware of the EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, right? It's one of I'm sure several groups that organizes & strives to push back against malicious action from tech companies, as well as over-encroachment from governments (at times itself coming from tech company lobbying). It's based in the United States though, if memory serves, so others may want to chip in and mention similar groups for their region/nation.

At the same time, services/platforms that don't rely on ads pretty much always welcome donations, e.g. Wikipedia, Internet Archive, Gutenberg, as well your resident Fediverse sites, so also keep those in mind.

[–] sharkfucker420@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago (9 children)
load more comments (9 replies)
[–] MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Facebook has shadow accounts for people who never signed up.

Can someone please explain how they are doing this?

  1. Use Adblocker
  2. Use DNS filter
  3. DoH to prevent MiTM/use your own resolver in Unbound.
  4. ~~I'm still trying to look up how to prevent ISPs from logging my SNI~~ Well, it seems Cloudflare and other domain service providers have implemented ESNI.
[–] emptyother@programming.dev 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Friends, family, and even people you briefly meet, rat you out. Often without them even knowing by sharing their list of phone contacts.

[–] MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

And what happens when you change your phone number? Does that become a new shadow profile? What of they change your name in their contact list? I'm trying to gauge how Facebook handles the inconsistencies of navigating contacts who don't have Facebook accounts

[–] xvlc@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We can only guess. But they can probably detect contacts for which the phone number is updated or which have several assigned phone numbers.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] SheDiceToday@eslemmy.es 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They do more than just the phone number and name. https://www.howtogeek.com/768652/what-are-facebook-shadow-profiles-and-should-you-be-worried/

It talks about the use of photos, people mentioning you in a post, etc. Sure, facetook publicly said they would be backing off of visual recognition, but how much do you really trust that company to do jack-diddly if there is potential profit? Anyway. If you change your phone number, but the same group of people still have you in a 'field of contacts,' their tools can almost certainly fit those puzzle pieces together. Same if you change the phone number. Identifying people is easy if you have metadata.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] reksas@sopuli.xyz 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

At the moment, there is no way to avoid having your information taken by corps. But what if we fought back by trying to pollute the information they gather? Instead of just trying to disable data collection, we could try to interfere with it and make it collect all kinds of useless crap that cant be separated or distinguished without serious effort. This way you could achieve same kind of anonymity as standing in huge crowd.

Another way to do it could be having huge community data pool that every participant adds to and also claims as "their own". I bet its really useful to see 1000 people with almost identical dataprofile and no way to distinguish which entry belongs to who. How do you even use ai to sort it out?

I think that is something we could do about it even on individual level.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] josefo@leminal.space 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

This post left me thinking in something. What if we could organize, so a city-owned ISP with a built-in pihole exists? What if we can just block tracking at the metropolitan level as we do in our houses? What if we don't just stop at DNS? What if we made just one city more private? What if we start with that?

[–] winterayars@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You'd basically be harassed by law enforcement and the NSA until you agreed to spy on your users. In the US at least.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] infuziSporg@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

at some point, we are going to have to boycott everything

[–] robot_dog_with_gun@hexbear.net 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

consumer boycotts aint shit. we need tech workers, some of the people with the least class consciousness and poorest ethics, to refuse to create and maintain surveillance tools.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] qyron@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 year ago

The best way to counter publicity is to simply erase from your mind. Turn it into white noise.

I don't have a clue how I've learned how to do this but I can have multiple publicity spots thrown at me that I won't retain a thing. Sometimes to the point I get a song stuck on loop in my head and I can't figure where I heard it.

Using tools to dodge or simply eliminate ads is also an option, especially online.

You can take back your freedom of choice to take part of an audience for publicity if you are willing to put some effort to regain it.

[–] Apollo2323@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I agree with you in all your points and I have also look into why people just give up their privacy so easily , most of the time what I have noticed is that they (we all) love convenience. You want a plug and play camera? Buy ring , Need a plug and play router with a nice App? Buy google and Amazon Eero. Need to promote your business? Where is everyone at? Facebook , Twitter and Google. Most regular people give up their privacy for convenience, they don't have time dealing with thousands of option on a PF sense router , no time to create VLAns.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] ExtremeDullard@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This was clearly spelled out - quite by mistake - by one of the very sumbitches stealing our privacy all the way back in 1999:

https://www.wired.com/1999/01/sun-on-privacy-get-over-it/

The sumbitches have since learned to work quietly and boil us frogs slowly. But they sure have been busy since 1999.

When I heard Scott McNealy utter that obscene statement back then, I laughed and I remember telling a coworker "That guy is off his goddamn mind". A decade later, I understood that he actually let slip something we should have paid a lot more attention to. But it was already much too late.

[–] Number1SummerJam@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

After reading about Snowden leaks and what world governments are capable of technologically, I've come to the same conclusion that privacy is now an illusion. Sure, one browser might send less data to corporations, but the government can see whatever they want on anyone's computer with an internet connection. The answer is to take a step back technologically. Interact with people in person. Read books at the library. Shop locally instead of online or at big box stores. Buy thrifted DVDs. The further you remove yourself, the more private you will be.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

This is why you vote in every election.

[–] robot_dog_with_gun@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

which party do i vote for if i want antitrust suits brought against tech companies and which party is running candidates who know how to write hello world in any programming language?

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] MiddledAgedGuy@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

I mirror your concerns but as long as there's money to be made, the thing that makes money will continue to happen. Advertising is part of that, and if they can harvest our data to target ads, they will.

We won't win the fight against money. What we can do is block/avoid advertisements, avoid (as much as possible) services that are known for this behavior, support services that are known to respect privacy, and educate those that are receptive.

[–] Metatronz@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Another user, in a similar thread, shared this speech on enshittification. Addresses a good bit of what you are talking about and why mass action is hard in the current legal framework. We need better laws.

https://youtu.be/rimtaSgGz_4?si=pdDRwugtHefZACcd

load more comments (1 replies)

Devo wrote a song about it.

[–] RovingFox@infosec.pub 3 points 1 year ago

We are empowered with our own path in life but we do not have full control of it. And that is ok, it is ok to not be able to control everthing.

load more comments
view more: next ›