I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy's massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It's been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let's say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they're what's colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn't be much of an issue if they didn't regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, ...
As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.
I posted a comment in this thread linking to "https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs" (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren't widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the "Be nice and civil" rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.
This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:
Definitely a trend there wouldn't you say?
When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.
Proof:
So many of you will now probably think something like: "So what, it's the fediverse, you can use another instance."
The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they're not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it's rather pointless sitting for example in /c/linux@some.random.other.instance.world where there's nobody to discuss anything with.
I'm not sure if there's a solution here, but I'd like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.
I don't mind being banned from the ml instance. The issue is their users come to all the other instances and use the same old strategies to stifle any speech by engaging extremely hyperbolic language and name-calling. The goal is to have a chilling effect on any discourse where their opinions are scrutinized in the slightest.
They can't engage with any topics or offer counter arguments. Every response is:
"I don't know how to respond to your argument. You must be a _____________[insert 'racist' or 'genocide defending' or 'fascist' or my new favorite 'zionist']"
Or a bunch of memes that are on the same level as what a MAGA idiot would make.
I do understand how the brigades can be annoying for sure, but I don't mind arguing with tankies, -- I think it's actually really useful for exposing their propaganda for what it is. It helps expose normal people to counter arguments so that they might become a little more aware, rather than just seeing propaganda go unaddressed and being morel likely to assume it must then be true.
The only issue I have personally is if the mods are in on it too and delete your posts/comments because you start to make a bit too much sense.
While I will be the first to admit that name calling and being incapable to engage with arguments is typical for social media platforms, I can also testify that it is the only treatment I've ever received from LML users. And the goal is pretty clear: you're with us or you're not. When you haven't forged your own independent conclusions through reflection and any deeper examination but rather through mimicry and simulated discourse your only option is fall back to in-groups or out-groups.
As an LML user the game quickly becomes: how fast can I "otherise" my interlocutor so that I don't have to respond to their points because that would require looking in the mirror and not liking what I might see.
And I received no such treatment from LML users (but do receive such treatment with almost every comment at lemmy.world and similar instances).
Hm, can it be because both instances just censure the opposite opinions and label it as misinformation resulting in echo-chambers and both groups believing their own (false) truth?..
Nah, no way, after all we are the good ones and the other side is bad and is censoring the truth while we are censoring misinformation and propaganda 🤦
I'm curious if you've ever pushed back against the grain of lml or if perhaps your opinions already align? lemmy.world is a big tent so you'll get a bigger diversity of users. LML skews heavily in one narrow direction so they have to contend with more outfielders and by default need to cater to their own insularity.
It's possible that your experience has been positive so far. The reach of this post alone which started this thread shows how much of an existential challenge LML is. How many threads are there on LML about being banned from lemmy.world? This one is like the 3rd or 4th i've seen (just from this month!) about being banned from LML.
I never post about communists and stuff, I post about horrors that are happening in Ukraine (not the ones that are committed by Russia, but by Zelensky's regime with support from the west), and I guess it so happens that it aligns with their narration of anti-imperialism/anti-USA (that's why I'm not censored and generally agreed with there), but it totally misaligns with heavily left-leaning views of lemmy.world and similar instances who think they are the good guys and are helping Ukrainians instead of slaughtering them (and that's I'm censored and generally disagreed with and even called fascist here).
I guess being banned/censored from left-leaning communities is so not surprising anymore that people do not even see a point in doing so? I see no point in creating such a thread. But that's just my opinion.
Your statement sounds like: "being banned from left leaning lemmy.world is so common we don't even bother talking about it over here at lml". Ok, I guess? Not much for me to contend with there.
I don't want to take the bait about your Ukraine stance, because it's a peculiar insertion at this point but ok. Suffice it to say it seems like you already agree with the de facto LML stance: west is evil. I push back against statements on l.world every day and I'm not worried about being banned. I push back one time on one thread on lml and the rest is history.
I do take umbrage with your stance on Ukraine, however (bait taken): That the US is a giant military industrial complex pulling the puppet strings from the shadows and sending Ukrainians to the slaughter. This is also a typical LML position that I hear often and seems to fall apart pretty quickly when examined a little better. This position seems to divorce Ukrainians of any agency in determining their future. Are they not entitled to defending the sovereignty of their nation? Who are you (or I) to tell them under what circumstances they should be allowed to push back against an invading force such as Russia? They are a sovereign nation that agreed to the Budapest memorandum and regardless who supplies them with weapons they can determine for themselves their destiny. It isn't for us to adjudicate from some kind of moral high ground which parts of Ukraine should be sliced off to the highest bidder even if the bullets they fire are made in capitalist imperialist evil America.
Yep, that's correct. (btw I definitely do not associate myself with communists, it's just that we agree on this particular point)
It doesn't! Those who want to fight, should definitely fight, and I don't argue against west supporting those who want to fight with weapons, training, and whatever else. It's actually the west that is not giving Ukrainians any choice in determining their future (see text below).
Again, they absolutely are! I totally support right for self-defense.
Absolutely correct again and I totally agree with you, nobody should be able to prevent people from "pushing back against an invading force".
Again, totally agreed.
The thing that I'm trying to say, and the thing that I'm getting called a fascist for, is that it is not "west is supporting brave Ukrainians who want to defend their nation and fight Russia to regain the occupied territories at all cost" it is "west is supporting Zelensky's regime (which I also consider absolutely illegitimate and authoritarian, their terms have expired, they ban all the opposition, they refuse elections, etc.) which forces people to fight by forbidding people to leave the country (which has already lead to many deaths of people who tried to escape this hell by crossing rivers/mountains and not making it), and kidnapping people on the streets, putting them into vans and sending them to the frontlines to die, and making the rest fear of going out" (you can find footages and sources for all of that if you visit my profile's comments, but lemme know if you want me to repost it again here).
It seems to me you have more of an issue with the concept of the draft, which ok, is a fine position to take. Nothing wrong with having a stance on that. Some people are pacifists and radically opposed to any type of armed conflict or draft service. But there are valid arguments for the draft too, so you can't just write them off by painting Zelenski into some type of tyrannical despot.
But that's neither here or there. The country is already in the midst of a full fledged war and elections don't typically occur in time of war.
I've found that it's best to be precise when articulating a position. When you paint things in broad strokes (ie Zelenskis cabinet as authoritarian) you are inviting unnecessary argumentation from other sides. If your thesis is that the draft is authoritarian then argue your point why you think that is. For instance, I do contend that the draft was executed in Russia under Putin is a manifestation of an authoritarian exercise because there is no justification for the war. Russian soldiers are not going to the meat grinder to defend their homeland. It's a completely different take. I can also provide counter arguments as to why the notion of the draft is not authoritarian when it's implemented in the service of defense.
I do have an issue with killing people (because that's what draft is - you force somebody to go war, where they die) who done you no harm, indeed.
I'm not and I don't really care about what other people do to each other, as long as both parties consent, they are free to wound, murder, rape and do whatever else to each other - "whatever makes your boat float" or something..
Is there something one can't provide a valid argument for?
For one, slavery is extremely good for the economy, if we enslave all the black people (or anybody else, black is here just to make a point) we can have lots of goods and services for fraction of the cost for example, we will solve the unaffordable housing very quickly and many other problems, wouldn't you agree?
And yet, I guess, if somebody does that - people will probably argue that that person is a tyrannical despot or something?
Zelensky effectively enslaved the Ukraine, where people are forced to do what he says, can't leave, and so on, and yet I wrong to say he is a tyrannical despot?
I am not too well-versed to really argue that point, but quick googling "are elections held during wartime" paints a mixed picture really, and says that at least in case of US it did hold elections during wars.
My point is a little bit different than simple "draft is not okay" (although that is definitely included) - people in the west are thinking that by helping the Ukrainian government they are helping Ukrainians to survive, and I am trying to tell people that it is exactly the opposite, and by supporting our government, they are only contributing to more of us dying and suffering (and so, I consider them directly responsible for all the deaths), as simple as that.
I'm having a problem with this narration of "helping".
If the narration was honest, like "let's support Zelensky's regime and supply him with weapons, because we want to harm Russia no matter the cost and no matter how many Ukrainians die" then it'd be a different conversation, but it isn't.
So, I guess, my point is trying to make people admit that this ^ is the case, and not "but we are helping Ukrainians and you are a russian bot!" 🤷♂️.
Thanks for the advice tho, I suppose you are right that I should be more precise when articulating a position.
I understand what you're saying.
On another note, are you Ukrainian by any chance brother? I really feel for you and I can tell that the draft is reality and not a joke for you if that's the case. I hope I wasn't rude and that you stay safe.
I am. Although nobody believes that because I don't praise our glorious Lord and Savior Zelensky.
Thanks man, really appreciate it! It's rare to hear that on this instance :(
You are perfectly reasonable, I wish the rest of the instance could participate in a civil discussion instead of name-calling and ad hominem.
Thanks again man.
I am safe, as I've left Ukraine before the war started, so unless other countries start cooperating with Zelensky's regime and kidnap people from the streets [and send them to Ukraine to die] there is no threat for me.
Unfortunately it's not true for some of my family members, my friends, and millions of Ukrainians :(
I totally understand! Peace and love homie.
It's genuinely nice to see two people with completely different opinions and views on a topic just get along nevermind engage in civil discourse and debate. Thats something I find Exceptionally hard to find on Lemmy. Thumbs up from me mate 👍
That's Lemmy.world for ya! Stick around 🙂
I've been on instance for 8 months now m8.
Any chance of a link? Just out of curiosity.
Sure, and not just one!
Here is a collection of footage of people being kidnapped from the streets, put into vans and sent to die: https://uadraftmuseum.ch/
Here is a recent news (in ukr, so please use a translator) that now they will be breaking into people's homes to do the same: https://focus.ua/voennye-novosti/650441-mobilizaciya-po-novomu-voennaya-policiya-smozhet-zahodit-v-zhile-i-voznagrazhdat-za-pomoshch
And a few more links about how people are trying to survive this hell, and how people are dying trying to escape:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription
The uadraftmuseum is interesting I might look into it when I get the chance.
Thanks but I meant links to your posts :-) Or more specifically, the communities you post to with anti-regime info. I looked through your profile but I couldn't see where you were posting such things beyond World News.
Oh, gotcha!
Sorry for being confusing, by "posting" I actually meant "commenting", I don't really post anything.
You can see all comments in my profile, but I guess due to way lemmy works you can only see all of them if you open it through my home instance? idk, but here's the link: https://monero.town/u/lltnskyc
I agree with you. Alot of hypocrites in lemmy.world. Think that censorship is okay when they are the ones doing it and it suits they're agenda. I personally am of the belief that we shouldn't censor any speech. No matter how uncomfortable it might make you me or them feel. Any kind of censorship should be condemned including Lemmy.world and lemmy.ml censorship. I think that both tankie nutcases and MAGA nutcases have a right to freedom of speech and expression. but so does everyone else.
Oh well, prepare for the downvotes now, I guess..
I actually upvoted the comment because I agree that silencing voices (which aren't harassing or abusive) is a bad thing, regardless of what opinion they are expressing. But downvotes aren't the same as admins banning you based purely on difference of opinion, let's not conflate the two. This thread is about the latter, while downvotes are just another form of free speech.
But I don't complain about it and don't conflate the two! I totally agree that downvotes is just another form of free speech.
That was just ironic "you agreed with me that censuring people is wrong and now people are going to show you how wrong you are" kind of thing, I have nothing against downvotes (I mean I'd prefer people try to engage in a civil conversation instead of that, but I'm definitely not forcing anybody to do anything, downvote away) :)
Downdoots hardly mean a thing to me. Bring erm on