this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
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I don't know why people are okay with trans people dying as well. Some people were absolutely sick when Brianna Ghey was brutally murdered.
You should ask your fellow Christians, trans folks are not so popular with the church if you haven't noticed.
Here's an example of putting ideology before people. I see on here regularly people who believe in the Christian god but are told that them looking at the doctrine of their holy books critically and trying to change the nature of their churches to be better is a useless endeavor and use the opportunity to snipe at people of faith.
During they holocaust while some Christian organizations were supportive of Nazis others assumed great personal risk and extracted hundreds of thousands of targeted people out of the country ro safety because of their faith. Their contributions were not small or easy and should not be ignored.
So often on here when trans issues come up people choose to use the occasion to put their personal religious trauma or prejudice before the needs of solidarity in the fight. They snipe at other trans allies for being "bad leftists" for believing in god. The trans community does not have the luxury of petty in-fighting, if choosing who our protectors will be. We cannot be choosing beggars for solidarity and help. Everything helps. There are trans people of faith who feel isolated in their need for community of other people of faith. There are churches that are key to changing people's minds, there are people of faith who need support and encouragement to keep fighting in their corner because creating an enduring culture of acceptance inside a religion can also create long term security. The needs of our community are varied. We of the trans community are not weapons to be weilded to score hits against our own allies so you can feel good. When you do so you are putting yourself first in opposition to the goals and needs of trans people. You want to hate on people of faith there are lots of people who could use the distraction but wearing out people who are actually empathetic and who we need fresh for the fight is not doing us a service.
Allies of faith, keep doing what you are doing. I may not personally believe in your gods but you have my respect and thanks because I have friends who are alive because of you.
Everyone who tries to change the Christian doctrine to be more in tune with the actual spirit and teaching of Jesus, has my respect.
And during the inquisition Christians tortured and burned people for basically fun of it. As any dogmatic believe system you can use Christianity to justify what ever you feel like.
Sure, but the dude I'm talking to is a christian fundamentalist who believes that abortion is murder and on trans issues just stated that trans people should indeed not be killed (pretty sure the person does adhere to christian dogma of two genders, even so they dance around an answer), wich I would not classify as ally.
It is still something I see very often levied at members of this community who don't deserve it. It is so very common for people who have a history of just mentioning their faith in the same breath as their support of trans people getting completely dog piled on by people who having sighted a believer to decide to try and debate their faith and hurl abuse.
More generally I wish people would realize what they are actually doing when they are doing that.
Possibly. I personally don't have any problems with personal faith but a general dislike for organized religions. In this instance I replied because I'm discussion abortions with the same person in the same thread.
Sometimes people's veiws on abortion are dearly held and we can ask only that they not inflict those beliefs on others.
This person, despite their stance on abortion, seems at least fairly progressive on their stance on trans people. Maybe not a gold star of support yes but was coming after them undermining them for the general state of the church in regards to gender minorities ultimately nessisary? This habit of individual members of a faith getting shoved on the back foot having to defend all of Christianity simultaneously for beliefs they don't personally hold is a way to express your distaste of organized religion... But Scapegoating isn't pleasant to be on the receiving end of.
Maybe I missed something, if so, I'm really sorry - but so far this person was against direct physical violence against trans people, which is sure better than nothing, but also nothing really to pat someone on the back for.
Again, I don't believe I'm doing it - I refer to this persons personal believes and I would be pleasantly surprised to be wrong.
Every Christian I have talked to about this subject is vehemently against killing transgender people. What does my belief in God have to do with my opinion on not killing trans people?
Christians are not really known for being champions for transgender folks. Catholics and Orthodox are official opposed to the existence of trans folks as a whole, since it does not work well with their binary view on gender.
Okay? That's a them problem. I'm not a Roman Catholic nor an Orthodox. Still never seen an Orthodox or a Catholic person advocate for the killing of trans people though.
They just say you don't exist, which at least does not help.
I've seen Atheists say that. Including Dawkins. Killing people and saying someone's belief in their own gender is or isn't valid are different things, though.
But there is no atheists dogma or teaching that can be a base for discrimination of trans people. Obviously individual atheist can be transphobic unrelated to their believe that there is no god. On the other hand christian transphobes will often root their transphophia in their christian believe.
Invalidating trans folks existence is often predecessor of violence against trans people.
Christianity doesn't have dogma on the trans issue. Dawkins would argue that biologival sex is a scientific fact. The Bible just says that God created people as man and woman. What does me being a Christian have to do with Christian transphobes, and why would you bring up my religion when I literally just expressed disgust at the murder of a transgender person?
Dude?
So? He rationalizes his transphobia with his poor understanding of human biology, psychology and sociology, which are all not his fields of expertise by the way, and more importantly unrelated to atheism. If he was Karamazov, than maybe you would have a point.
At best you participate in a believe system that promotes violence against trans people by invalidating their existence. So your disgust seems rather disingenuous, or you haven't really reflected on this whole topic at all.
What.
You have troubles reading?
Christian dogma of two genders invalidated the existence of trans folks, which in turn promotes violence against trans people. Since you haven't explicitly stated your own believes but you self identify as christian, it's reasonable to assume that you adhere to basic Christian dogma. This assumption is supported by your stance on abortion, which means you are more of a fundamentalist christian.
Not once did I mention Christianity as being my basis for my stance on Abortion.
So what would make you happy then? If I stopped being Christian? Because it sounds like you want me to choose between being Christian and being pro violence against trans people, even though it's a bit of a stretch to say that the Bible saying God created people male and female is promoting violence against trans people.
Sure, you just can't come up with any other reasoning (we have a rather long conversation, so you had plenty of opportunities). But please enlighten me on how your stance on abortion, is not result of you moral views that stem from your believe in Christianity.
Not needing to have a conversation on abortion and human rights for trans people, would make me happier. But that is besides the point. I just pointed out, that it's somehow bizarre for me, that people who invalidate trans people whole existence are surprised by the violence trans people experience and are not able to see a connection.
Because foetuses look like children and can feel pain, have a heartbeat, etc. If anything I'd be more pro life if I was atheist as at least I know that they go to heaven. But this isn't our abortion discussion.
I never invalidated transgender people's whole existence. But if you want me to not be vocal against killing people (as it seems you don't want me to by my first argument) then fine. I guess my Christian belief of "you shall not kill" is too radical and should be kept to myself.
But that is not your reasoning. Your state that after implantation abortion is murder. A blastocyst does not look like a child, does not feel pain and does not have a heart to begin with. So who are you kidding and why are you not trusting in your own faith?
Sure, I just assumed you follow the most common christian doctrine as defined by the bible and major Christians sects. Feel free to correct me at any time.
Christians love being victims. What about the other cheek my friend? Jesus was a cool dude, what the fuck happened to his followers? I personally blame Peter.
You don't have to strictly be for killing them, you can just be against their existence, and someone else will take that to its logical conclusion.
"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest"
I think it is true that Christians who are against violence against trans people should be far more vocal over it. But the general thing I hear isn't really wanting to get rid of trans people, more of if they should be validated as their desired gender or not, or how children should be approached about the topic.
the existence of trans people is quite literally conditional on them being validated as their desired gender.
if you don't validate them, then when they keep doing trans stuff (like transitioning), you will freak out and attempt to stop them. For example by sending them to conversion therapy. And it should be obvious to any basically humanist person why that's a bad idea.
No, because there are no effective conversion therapies that work, and it can make the situation worse. It's not a binary. You don't have to choose between "oh yeah sure let's change the signs on bathrooms! You can compete in women's sports and be in women spaces, too! Oh and please go and tell these children all about your sex change!" and "send them all to conversion therapy at gunpoint". I don't know why you keep jumping to conclusions so quickly and freak out at me stating the fact that killing people is abhorrent. Because apparently I am not allowed to condemn the murder of a young girl because I, like 2.38 billion other people, think that Jesus of Nazareth from 2024 years ago made a convincing case for actually being God.
and also what is the alternative you propose that's neither acceptance or forced conversion?
"separate but equal"? "keep that stuff at home"? no thank you, i'd rather be part of society. separate but equal is never actually equal.
I didn't propose anything. I'm not a politician, lol
I assume have something to say about it, or you wouldn't be posting trying to defend your opinion.
So far I've seen that you don't want to kill us and you don't want to try to force us to stop existing, but you don't seem to want to accept us either. so what else is there?
I just don't want to be infiltrated by it personally. I love you and accept you as a human being. I am against anything that may put women in danger or mislead children. If you don't want to do that, then I don't really care. You should know that you are loved and are human like the rest of us. You aren't anything less or more than me. And I don't think any less of you for your gender identity, and I wish other Christians stopped being so aggressive about that either.
Except when it comes to abortions, than you are all for putting women in danger.
What does this even mean?
You literally asked what I meant by it after trying to 'respond' to me saying what I meant. Lol.
This made me chuckle because that's exactly how I read the posts. I was like.. what? Okay. Sounds like how my mom used to argue with me. "What do you mean? You meant this! That's what you meant! Don't explain yourself now, I already caught you in an inconsistency! I didn't put words in your mouth, you did!" LOL moms.
Not really. First was just a dig at your inconsistencies. Second was a try to get your actual opinion out of you.
Competing in women's sports and participating in women's spaces is part of existing as a woman. And if you accept that trans people exist and aren't inherently harmful or disgusting, then children learning about their existence isn't so bad either.
btw the bathroom thing is just common sense. if a bathroom is single occupancy, it shouldn't be gender separated. this has little to do with trans people.