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israel's goal is the complete removal of the Palestinian people from their lands, whether that's through genocide or other means, they don't care. You're saying that somehow trump will make this worse. How can it get worse than genocide? Regardless, you're saying that no matter who we vote for, we get genocide. So tell the people who have this as their most important issue: what difference does their vote make? For someone who claims that only other people "jump for joy over brown people getting killed" you sure do fight hard to defend someone who is killing "brown people". I dunno, maybe you think you're superior because you imagine others are jumping for joy over death while you, the enlightened democrat, merely just don't care about "brown people" dying in the face of votes.
Speaking of stupid, just because I criticize biden, doesn't mean I'm a trump supporter. It's incredibly stupid to think there are only two sides in this.
21% of the Israeli population are Arabs. Over 2,000,000 people, many are Palestinian. Virtually all of them live perfectly peaceful lives and recognize Hamas for the terrorist organization that it is. There are Palestinians working in the Israeli government, elected to office. They hold seats in Israel's legisture.
How could trump make it worse? Well right now the daily death tolls are steadily decreasing, aid into the region is increasing, the war strategy is becoming more precise, Biden is pressuring Israel to an extent that is unprecedented for America, and oh I don't know: America has future presidential elections scheduled, we're not in a hot war with Iran and have a policy of containment that is has so far staved off another US mid east war.
Cons? A country America does not control has killed 35,000 people in open war against actual terrorists over a period of four plus months, but most of whom are civilians. Let's say the UN finds it to be a case of wanton genocide, let's say the current trend fully reverses and Israel starts using helicopter gunships to mow down fleeing civilians by the hundreds, as in the case of the Rohingya genocide. Let's assume that instead of 1% of the population of Gaza dead, Israel goes full genocide and kills all 2.5 million Gazas and moves in Israeli settlers. That's worst case scenario in your view, right? I just say it seems very unlikely given the current state of the war but let's say this is the slipperiest slope ever.
Or...could have a dictator in America. Could have a guy whose loyalty has again and again been to Russia, Saudi Arabia, and himself. Guy who flagrantly breaks the law on televsion. Has said that he would use collective punishment on terrorists and their families. Trump thinks Bibi is a great, smart, and strong leader. Trump started a hot war with Iran already which only ended because Iran accidentally shot down a civilian airliner.
What if we did have a hot war with Iran? 35,000 sounds bad so bad to you #GenocideJoe (again, heçs president of America, not Israel), right? How does 3,500,000, sound? How does 35,000,000 sound to you? Are those numbers still the same thing in your mind? Population of Iran is 100,000,000. How many would die in the increasingly inhospitable climate of the mid east with a few more failed states to deal with, tens of millions of refugees fleeing to Europe, Africa, and Asia. How about 35,000 people dying every day for months or years on end?
Your sincere concern for Palestinians is humanitarian in nature, right? War with Iran would be an utter catastrophe and make the 2023 Israel-Gaza war seem like a footnote. These are my sincere opinions, anyway.
Arabs are basically second-class citizens in Israel: https://www.jta.org/2016/04/12/israel/4-ways-jews-and-arabs-live-apart-in-israeli-society
"aid into the region is increasing" are you counting from when the US pulled funding based on israel's claims (without a shred of evidence)? The war strategy is becoming more precise in that they tell Palestinians exactly where to gather so they can be bombed in a precise location. How is biden pressuring israel when he pushes so hard to get more billions of dollars into their hands? Your idea of pressure is very different from, well, I guess anyone living in reality.
I know you're trying to invoke the "slippery slope" fallacy, but just one look at a map showing israel's constantly expanding borders should make it obvious to anyone that this "slippery slope" is not a fallacy, but real. After israel completes their obvious mission of complete ethnic cleansing, you'll be shrugging your shoulders and probably saying something like "it's regrettable, but that's all in the past, we'll do better in the future".
Yeah, trump is bad, but biden is not any better on this specific and important issue. You know how you get trump re-elected? By being stubborn and ignoring voters. There is a pretty important bloc of Arab-American voters in Michigan (you know, the state Hillary lost in 2016) that have some pretty strong opinions on this matter.
War with Iran is inevitable because that's what israel wants: total domination of the Middle East. Ever wonder why countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya, and others were toppled with great help (or direct action) from the US? All enemies of israel get destroyed and it's no mere coincidence. War with Iran is inevitable and, like the map of israel's ever-expanding bordering, anyone paying even a bit of attention can see this obvious trend.
Harder, faster, more brutal, less consequences.
Look, I can tell you're one of those people for whom words short-circuit your brain. Once you hear a certain word, you stop thinking and just start emoting. Genocide. Pedophile. Guns. It prevents you from thinking about the how and the why because you're blinded by anger.
Depopulation and mass killing are both genocide, but one is worse than the other. Attempting a genocide over 30 years is not as bad as attempting a genocide over 3 months, because we are more likely to stop the former.
There literally are only two sides, that's how our voting system works.
We as individuals are more than our political system. Well, you certainly aren't, but other people are. israel are doing this genocide as fast as they can and biden is pledging billions in support of them as they do it. Do you think trump would pledge more billions? Do you think he'd pledge US troops to join in? You're dealing in hypotheticals and trying to shut down any criticism of the current president who has the power to stop this. How about we don't have genocide, or is idea too mind-blowing for your supposedly not-short-circuited brain to understand?
Following your logic, the civil rights act should've never been passed since it cost democrats votes from racists.
Yes.
Yes.
That's not really an option. The most Biden could do is make it a little less genocidey, until Trump wins and then it gets a whole lot more genocidey.
Democrats won the undying fealty of the single most reliable voter bloc: Black women. Black women vote every time, even when forced to vote for the lesser of two evils. Black women always vote Democrat. They will trudge through snow or hurricanes to vote Democrat. Can you say as much for the far left? Realistically, if Biden cut off aid to Israel tomorrow, there's a decent chance you'd find something else he did that you didn't like that you'd use as an excuse to not vote.
More importantly, the Civil Rights Act was popular enough that it couldn't get undone by future administrations. Anything Biden does to help Palestine or thwart Israel will be immediately undone next year when Trump takes over.
Not to mention the very real possibility of the end of our democracy. I know we're talking about Israel here so I won't dwell on it, but it's worth keeping in mind even in terms of helping Palestine long term. Can't help Palestine if we've become a Christian theocracy. Hell, we'd probably have troops there ourselves participating in the massacre.
The possibility of the end of our democracy is precisely because of the many times we've gone along with "this is just how things are" and democrats insisting that we have to work with republicans while republicans kept getting worse and worse, moving the overton window to the right. Democrats need to put their foot down and pull back the overton window to the left, that is how we can make some real changes. Democrats doing this would show people that there is a party that will actually fight for them, a party worth going through the trouble of voting for. I thought this was the lesson that would be learned from 2016 when democrats pushed through a "safe" "centrist" candidate and lost, but instead they've doubled down.
israel doesn't need to have bipartisan support. Yes, aipac has a lot of power, but it's because of this undying support for israel which creates this feedback loop. Doing the right thing is worth it in the long run.
Yes, I'm sure a Republican win will definitely help pull things left. What the hell, dude.
Do you think republicans got this bad while winning every single election?
Every single time they win, things get worse. Remember what happened in 2016 when people decided to not vote, so they could send a message to the DNC?
Yes, that was my point, republicans make a tangible difference when they get in while democrats mostly sit with their thumb up their ass. Interesting how trump did more in 4 years than obama did in 8. I do remember when the DNC pushed through an insanely unpopular candidate while also promoting trump as much as they could because they thought he'd be easy to win against. Somehow democrats think they can be smug and say "I told you so" when they're the stupid fucks who lost against a clown that they helped set up as the opponent. It's a joke party and their representative animal being a jackass suits them well.
Ohhh so you're one of those people. Your mask slipped a bit - you changed "made things worse" into "made a difference".
So this whole time you only cared about hurting the Democrats, huh? You sure don't sound like a Russian asset. What's your motivation?
Or -- hold onto your seat for this stunning twist -- I said "make a tangible difference" to emphasize that they're making a tangible difference that people can feel. Being worse is a difference, galaxy brain.
Sure, but with very different connotations. I'm not an idiot, I see what you did.
But if you're still going to pretend this is a normal discussion there's no point in me continuing.
When democrats win, nothing gets better either. Our political systems are shown to obviously cater to corporations instead of the will of the people. It's time to stop voting for the lesser of two evils bullshit and rise the fuck up.
Bullshit lies and republican propaganda. Fuck off with your "both sides". Give Democrats power, and they make people's lives better.
When democrats had a supermajority for just a few months, they passed legislation that saved 20,000 lives and improved countless others.
I could find HUNDREDS of other examples, but I won't, because you won't listen, because you're a troll with an agenda. Fuck you and the elephant you rode in on.
K
Democrats: save 10s of thousands of people from dying
You: "eh, whatever"
And you wonder why Democrats pander to the moderates. Nothing is ever good enough for you people.
More genocide, record oil production, arming the border, starting new wars in the middle east. No that's not fucking good enough lol.
Keep shifting right, I'm sure that can't backfire.
Your purity testing is WHY we've been shifting right.
This is a long one, so I'm sure you won't bother, but it's an excellent deep dive into how "the perfect is the enemy of the good" has been borne out in the past few decades. TL;DR: left wing infighting has consistently ceded control to right wing fascists.
https://theintercept.com/2022/06/13/progressive-organizing-infighting-callout-culture/
We're out of time on the climate my friend, I agree making perfect the enemy of good is a bad idea, unfortunately, business as usual neoliberalism and pumping record amounts of oil, isn't good. Too little too late, hopefully earth finds harmony after humans 🌎✌️
So you're saying in terms of genocide your vote has no impact whatsoever?
Well technically, Biden is pushing back somewhat on Israel, so it's a less bad genocide with Biden.
But in terms of whether there will be genocide? No, your vote doesn't matter. At least in the short run.
I do think this has the possibility of pushing the Democratic party away from Israel in the future. Even staunch Zionists are starting to feel a little uneasy with the scale of the massacre.
Sounds like it's time to start fresh.
Also not on the table. It's either Trump or Biden.
Good luck with that.
Thanks. We need it.
Something we can agree on lol.