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Israel is deliberately mass.murdering civilians and flattening cities. They did the same thing during their war in Lebanon in 2006 - levelling urban areas like Dahiyeh to cause disproportionate damage as a deterrent. I've read that they've dropped the equivalents of 33 tons of explosives for every square kilometre of Gaza. To inflict this on one of the densest urban areas on earth on a civilian population is pure evil.
Hamas doesn't stop murdering innocent civilians, deliberately targets civilians and avoids military targets, and then hides behind civilians.
Israel needs to eradicate Hamas, but can't do so as Hamas hides behind civilians. Options are to allow Hamas to butcher the innocent, or go after Hamas with civilian casualties.
I don't like it, but the extermination of Hamas is necessary. The Gaza civilians are in a terrible position if they withdraw their support of Hamas, Hamas will just execute them. It's shitty, and terrible, but this is all on Hamas and only highlights the need for their removal.
Hamas hides behind civilians, yes. They doesn't make killing the civilians right. It makes both sides wrong. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. This is not a war as the west bank doesn't have an army. Israel prevent them having legitimacy as a country. One consequence of this is paramilitary organisations.
When a terrorist takes hostages, we don't bomb the hostages to get them out. We kill the terrorists if possible and try to free the hostages.
Israel needs to eradicate Hamas, Hamas needs to eradicate Israel. They can't both be right, thus, it can only be that both are wrong.
This is "war on terror" levels of idiocy.
Was it evil also to bomb and flatten Berlin and the rest of Germany at the end of WW2?
If you are British or American, how do you feel about that?
Back then it wasn't known that it's not an effective strategy, Germany's reaction to those bombings pretty much set the precedent for it becoming a war crime.
And from a German perspective: We started it. And did way worse, e.g. bombing Polish cities with the explicit goal to cause maximal casualties in predominantly Jewish quarters. The allies, meanwhile, did not try to maximise casualties or anything like that but tried to make as many people as possible homeless, in an attempt to lower economic output, gum up the system, etc. Generally speaking, it didn't work. Have a Kraut video for a lot more context.
And no such thing could possibly be the goal in Gaza as Gaza already doesn't have an economy. Other possible justifications, such as "have lower overall casualties" (see e.g. bombing Dresden vs. slogging through it like slogging through Budapest) don't apply because Hamas is not going to surrender and are way more erm entunnelled. To get them out of there you have to get in there. Or maybe pour concrete in all exits you can find? That'd have my blessings.
Furthermore: As a German Zionist I'd rather Israel didn't slide into complete inhumanity, and further into fascism, thank you. (Ben-Gvir is minister so they're already half-way there, also, there doesn't seem to be much opposition against collective punishment). It's not exactly a thing you wish on a country: It's pretty much the worst calamity that can befall a country.
What would be your preferred and effective strategy against someone who wants you dead and comes into your home and kills your children? Expect and accept apology?
The priority is creating conditions such that Palestinian teenagers don't constantly see Israel abusing their families, unjustly imprisoning them, stealing their land and murdering them by the thousands, or else you'll have Palestinians asking themselves: "What would be your preferred and effective strategy against someone who wants you dead and comes into your home and kills your children? Expect and accept apology?" and joining Hamas.
Are you talking about the Deir Yassin massacre?
Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, at some point people have to make up and let the past be the past. Currently Israel is going way beyond eye for an eye.
As to the current situation: How about at least having the fucking decency to build a couple of tent cities outside Gaza and let children, the elderly, and vetted people out of that killbox. If that's too much, how about not bombing areas you previously told people to flee to. This is like the bare minimum to be able to claim you care a fucking iota about humanity.
People gobble up Hamas propaganda and repeat it. On social media a lot of things have become facts that aren't proven or were shown to be false. For example the alleged bombing of the hospital or the alleged bombing of the escape route.
On the other hand, most people don't even know that Israel is constantly bombarded from different sides and that there are ongoing attacks on their settlements etc.
People online don't know because it is an ongoing info war which is very unequal. Hamas and other extremist islamic groups win by numbers alone because the majority of Muslims unquestioning stand behind Palestine.
About 79 % of Israelis are Jewish, there are 16 million Jews world wide.
99 % of people in Gaza and 85 % of people in West Bank are Muslim. 1.8 billion people are Muslim world wide!
Palestine, Hamas and activists invest into social media and propaganda a lot because that's the war they will almost certainly win. And it comes with huge benefits people seldom acknowledge.
Just think about it: Hamas was able to conduct a mass killing and abduction of civilians and continues to do so and people are justifying it left and right. You don't see the faces of Israeli victims or photos of the destroyed buildings on Israel's side online.
You should definitely look up some less biased sources.
Are you saying Hamas made up Deir Yassin or what are you getting at? Can you, for a single moment, be actually concrete in your accusations? What, precisely, did I say that is supposedly Hamas propaganda?
The escape route bombing happened. The hospital bombing didn't happen... this time. The IDF has bombed hospitals on other occasions. And don't get me started on what's going on in the West Bank.
And Israel doesn't?
Are we living on the same planet? It has been all over the news. Now Israel's completely disproportionate response is all over the news. That's how news cycles work.
I'm actually, as already mentioned, a Zionist and quite well-informed, thank you very much. Thing is: I gave up in despair when the fucker killed Rabin, for the first time realising just how fucked parts of Israeli civil society are. Back then it was a national tragedy, now Israel has a minister of national security who called for that very assassination. The short of the story is that it's better for the Jewish people for there to be no Israel than a fascist Israel, and y'all are heading right into that direction with ever increasing speed.
Yeah, that doesn't fly in the real world where actions have consequences.
Justice cannot simply be allowed to die in the dark just because both sides are stubborn. We as humans owe reality much more than that. Trying to let the past be the past is what got us here. We have to do something to hold everyone who committed a war crime responsible so all sides feel as though justice has been done.
Forgiveness blackens the soul, bro. Justice is what brings humanity light and those people so badly need light right now.
So what exactly did all those civilians do in terms of committing war crimes? How many Settlers are facing the music for killing Palestinians while doing highly suspicious things such as harvesting olives?
Yeah, that's a pretty transparent attempt to twist my words. We have international criminal courts. We've held tyrants and genocidal maniacs to the hangman's noose before and need to start doing it again. We're capable of discerning who is responsible for doing what. We're adults.
You might not want justice to happen, but the rest of us do, and we won't be deterred by you.
Israel is not part to the ICC. Palestine is.
Now that is twisting my words. Again: How many Settlers are facing the music for killing Palestinians while doing highly suspicious things such as harvesting olives? Is that or is that not advocating for justice?
Meanwhile Israel surely served justice by exchanging 1000 Hamas fighters for a single IDF soldier. Letting stone throwers and crooks go, fine, sure, but people like Yahya Sinwar? Who justly got four life sentences? Fucking stop talking about justice.
I don't care what side you're on. Doubling down isn't going to let you get around the fact that you can't sacrifice justice for peace, for any side of the conflict. The ICC really needs to hold authority over all countries. That's where your quibbling should be taken. If humanity refuses to accept justice, then all you'll get are genocides and forever wars, and it'll probably be what we deserve.
Israel won't join the ICC any time soon because reasons, and Gaza, well, Hamas is running it as their little dictatorship. Best I can currently offer you in regards to justice, thus, is to hold the Israeli justice system to account.
I'm on the side that opposes fascism. I don't care what language people do fascism in, or what coat of paint they give it. Kahanites and Hamas are the same shit to me.
You are only looking at the consequence of oppressing people until they are out of hope and the only path that remains to them seems to be one of violence.
More violence and more oppression will only cement this and pave the road for the next generation of hopeless militants.
The solution would be to break this cycle but that would require concessions from the hardline Zionists.
You too would feel hate and resentment for those who took your father's land, bombed regularly, put you under a harsh embargo, no jobs prospects, no hope, and, no future.
🤔 I wonder if it's even possible to resolve the situation in a just fashion that holds all parties responsible for their actions.
We've tried having third parties intervene but it's becoming such that humanity as a species is taking sides on the issue.
That means it might not be possible for justice to be done. There might not be anything anyone can do except evacuate as many innocent civilians as possible and let Hamas and the Israeli government fight it out to the last man.
EDIT: Addendum to that, we cannot give up on justice just because it seems hopeless, and I do concede it looks pretty fucking hopeless. But we're humans. We're the ones who brought justice into this world and we are its only stewards. If we give up on it, all that'll be left is genocide and abject fucking darkness. We have to find a way.
Are you saying that all the Palestinians have to die to prevent a few Palestinians from committing crimes?
If the actions of a few can condemn an entire population... which seems to be the underlying argument here, then a few Israelis can commit crimes to condemn the entire country....
This is eye for an eye leaves the world blind territory. Collective punishments simply magnify overall violence, they don't stop it.
You just described why every war is bad.
There is not a single war in the entire history of humankind were exclusively "the bad people" died.
So what you are actually saying is that specifically Israel is not allowed in partaking in war unless they somehow achieve what no one else ever achieved, which is a war without casualties.
With on top of it the added difficulty that Hamas is a terrorist group, so no "official" military targets.
Great, lets let the people who dont want to fight in this war leave.... ohh, that's right, they are all in prison and can't leave the "combat zone" which is... literally their prison.
The reason this conflict is very polarizing, is you have 1 million children/adolescents, 500k women, and 500k adult men locked in a box, no way out... They can't leave this conflict... they are trapped. If you were trapped in a room that was on fire, you would want to be let out....
It's not a war, it's a goddamn genocide. The Israeli government is making the same mistake the U.S. did in Iraq and as an American who protested the Iraq war as a kid, I watch what is happening and I shake my head in disappointment. 🤦
In this case though, the analogy is only correct if I was also repeatedly setting my own rooms and the rooms beside me on fire. On purpose.
Civilians are innocent. Can the actions of a few condemn the whole group?
If your in a house, that is on fire, would you want to be rescued even if there was a arsonist with you?
Collective punishment is nasty unjust business. Where do you draw the line on the group your punishing? And if the innocents harmed in the collective punishment decide to collectively punish you right back... that is just fair - right?
Is a war always collective punishment in your opinion, or just in this case? How is Palestine not also committing collective punishment?
Your constant calling of what about isn't serving you well.
If Hamas was engaged in a similar long term action against a large civilian population, there would be protests against them too.
For the last 21 days the majority of civilians suffering are in Gaza, so Gaza gets the protestors today.
Squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Saying the people of Gaza need to die to satisfy your thirst for revenge just means the cycle of killing wont end with you
Don't put words in my mouth, please. I don't have a "thirst for revenge" or am saying people in Gaza "need to die"!
It's you who wants Jewish civilians to just be murdered and kidnapped and Hamas get applauded for it. (Feels bad, right?)
In their enthusiastic zeal to defend Palestine people are incredibly apologetic towards Hamas and similar groups. And seem all to happy to forget the kind of politics Palestine puts on display. And that for several decades now.
I wish people would think more long-term and realistic instead of screaming at each other who is the bigger protector of the oppressed. It seems shallow to be honest, and not really in favour of a better situation.
Why is it so hard to agree that killing civilizations is bad and nobody should do it. Why does pointing out the Gazan civilians are dying have to be conditioned on anything else?
Point me to where I wrote civilizations should be killed.
You never say the words explicitly...
You simply say 'what else should Israel do'.
Your posting history never is about saving civilians.
Notice how you didn't agree with my last post that 'killing civilians is bad and no one should do it'. Do you agree with that?
Of course I do. When you are digging through my post history you should have seen that I said that multiple times already.
When I look through your post history, though, I don't see a shred of sympathy for Israelis. Just apologies for the atrocities Palestine is committing. Are these people not responsible for their own doing?
Your conflating the people of Palestine and Hamas. That's like balming Jews globally for the actions of the IDF.
Palestine is not committing atrocities, Hamas is. Most Palestinians don't live in Gaza, so the majority of Palestinians don't support Hamas.
Even in your last comment your assigning collective responsibility for individual actions. That's an implicit endorsement of collective punishment.
We're all humans, should we be killing random humans for the actions of Hamas?
For what it's worth, I'm very sympathetic to the Israeli civilians who've been killed. It's a terrible experience they went through. I don't wish that on anybody.
I did not however, have solidarity with the Israeli government policies, which created a situation where violence is inevitable
You still didn't answer the question and avoiding it. Seems almost like you don't condemn the violence and attacks towards Israel and Israelis and think they deserve it.
The majority of Palestinians in Palestine and other countries celebrate the attacks Hamas commits. I've seen it here on the streets in my neighborhood how they were giving out candy and laughing when Hamas murdered and kidnapped Israelis on the music festival and in the villages.
Oh well your question was " are these people not responsible for their own actions? " In my response was clearly, you're conflating the Palestinian civilians, and the actions of Hamas. And then I gave you counterexamples.
If you wanted to ask me do I feel terrible for the Israeli civilians that have been killed? Yes I feel terrible, nobody should suffer like that. Nobody should be in the path of violence.
When Palestinians weren't with Hamas they wouldn't celebrate their violence.
Without them changing as well, there will be no end to the violence.
There you go again. Blaming the civilians for what's happening to them. You can speak for an entire population? All Palestinian support Hamas? And if they don't support Hamas they celebrate hamas's actions? That's a big assumption, and a catch 22.
Clearly not all Jewish people support the bad things happening Gaza, I know this, because they're a diverse population with different moral composes, and some of them have even gone on record saying hey this is a terrible situation it shouldn't be happening.
Quite honestly, I think your internal biases, inform your reactions. And you don't examine your own biases. You think I'm pro Hamas, I'm not. You said you looked at my posting history, I'm pretty sure you didn't, cuz it's quite extensive, and you would have seen me arguing with pro Hamas people.
Quite frankly, I don't care about the situation, these people have been killing each other since before I was born, and they will continue to kill each other long after I am dead. What I do care about is people making incorrect arguments online, without thinking about their biases, without thinking about the effect their advocating for. Which is why we had that whole argument about asymmetric power imbalances in the other thread.
So you believe it's an incorrect statement that for peace Palestine has to change as well?
Palestine has to change to find a stable peaceful situation, as does Israel. As I indicated they probably have to combine and come to terms with each other.
@Project2501
Yes. Reckless bombing of civilians is always evil.
I'm always flabbergasted when people bring up other heinously awful things as if it's some kind of gotcha.
Yes, and add Hiroshima and Nagasaki on that list too.