this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023
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The thing is you also have to admit the power imbalance at play here.
Both sides suck, but one side has the power to stop making the situation worse and stop abusing millions as they colonise their land.
This can never end or start to heal until the fucked up treatment of Palestinians stops. All they are doing is breeding tomorrow’s fighters.
I think an apt comparison is Russia and Ukraine right now. I fully support Ukraine in this war, and part of that is not just because they're the underdog who got unjustifiably invaded, but because they take care to avoid targetting innocent civilians. For example, when they strike Sevastopol, they strike military facilities, never residential areas. Whereas Russia intentionally terrorizes the Ukrainian people, kidnaps Ukrainian children, targets residential areas, and commits so frickin many war crimes.
If the attack by Hamas were against legitimate military targets, I don't think there would be many people out here questioning it. But they didn't. They are a fundamentalist religious group that wishes to commit genocide, and they intentionally targeted and mass-murdered civilians. Beyond that, by attacking a music festival, they targeted people who were statistically more likely to be sympathetic to their cause. Clearly their goal is not simply self defense, but genocide.
Also a good comparison is the PLO in West Bank, as they aren't Hamas and had no hand in this attack. In fact, they and Hamas hate each other. And as far as I'm aware, PLO just wants the two-state solution and haven't officially sanctioned terrorist attacks in ages. Unfortunately, Hamas has likely managed to discredit the PLO cause, despite them not having any guilt in this.
That's... complicated. There is a fund that the PA pays the PLO to administer called the Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund. It pays out stipends to the family of Palestinians who have been killed, imprisoned, or hurt while attacking Israel. This has been a point of contention for a long time, but it's apparently very popular among Palestinians so politicians are loath to touch it.
how are they similar atrocities?
did hamas lock 2.5 million people in the worlds most dense open air prison?
did hamas systematically crushed their buildings and not let concrete inside?
did hamas shoot little kids just for throwing rocks?
did hamas systematically murdered press, medics on the field?
did hamas control israelis food intake?
did hamas very deliberately snipe the knees of people peacefully protesting?
did hamas cut electricity, water, food?
did hamas bombed places that palestinian prisoners stayed?
did hamas tell people to leave the city and bomb the only way out?
what did hamas do? the only thing left to do when you do all of those things to a people.
so tell me then, how would you behave if you were a palestinian? just accept death?
Exactly. It's not a choice between "murder innocent civilians" and "do nothing"; it's a choice between "murder innocent civilians" and "target legitimate targets such as the military apparatus that actually murders Palestinians regularly or the right-wing political apparatus that pursues a policy of military hyper-aggressiom, apartheid, and settler colonialism".
If they chose to do the latter, I doubt nearly as many people would take issue with them, they'd receive vastly more sympathy, and they could finally end the systemic murder and oppression of Palestinians faster.
you would have the ability? how?
Look man, if your options are literally only "do nothing and accept your fate" or "kill a bunch of innocent people who never did anything to you and actually may have supported you" then maybe you should just give up and accept your fate, because we're literally seeing how many more innocents are dying because of this. They didn't put a dent in Israel's defenses. They gave Israel more excuses to the international community to murder even more innocents. Great plan, Hamas. I'm glad it worked out so swimmingly and actually changed things instead of just continuing the same bullshit cycle. /s
If you can point to me out how this is going to result in anything other than more death and destruction, feel free to clue me in. Because fuck nothing has changed. They didn't take out the people responsible. They didn't change the power balance, and now even more Palestinians are paying the price because Israel is a fucked up aggressor.
Acting like a bad plan that resulted in more innocents deaths is some great blow against the establishment is dumb as fuck.
asymmetric warfare. i would figure it out. sorry about your palestinians but im different. /s
Are you saying the only options are handing out collective punishment or accepting death?
First, that’s doubtable. But if so, I’d indeed accept death. I’m not killing innocents.
I’d rather die than become a living monster.
no im not saying that, youre saying that. you are equating what israel has done for 75 years to mere reaction to that. you may not believe that hamas is not killing civilians on purpose and i cannot change that, but that does not change reality.
we have seen just war crimes over war crimes from israel just for the past few days. this is on top of decades of apartheid.
i could accept death for myself, too. but not for my daughter.
I was equating killing innocents with killing innocents, nothing else.
You are justifying mass punishment with …something about your daughter, and with that exposing exactly the attitude that keeps the region in a never ending cycle of death.
"2. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;" https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/
war crimes:
these are the ones that were committed in just few days.
I understand. you list here injustice that when experienced are beyond words.
Now tell me: in what cases does is the punishment of innocents justified?
your assumption is wrong.
israel displaced millions of palestinians and replaced them with settlers. the blood is on israel government not hamas. they could easily not replace millions of people and we would not be here today.
Now you named one factor that explains this mess, and no objection here. But I’m still missing the answer how killing innocents can be justified.
It seems to me that you think that every person that lives in Israel is responsible for everything that the Israeli government did over the years.
How is that any different from this weeks retaliation that this Israel government hands out over the massacres of citizens by hamas from last weekend?
i have been saying the same thing from the beginning, but i think your perspective of the situation is holding you back from understanding what im saying.
you can put innocent people anywhere in the world and they dont stop being innocent. but that does not change the fact that they are in someone elses home illegally.
if they did not want to be in someone elses home then it is the fault of the government, if they did want to be in someome elses home then it is their fault.
Again, what’s the justification for killing innocents? Because they walk on land that another claims theirs? That sort of thinking always and everywhere only led to war and war crimes.
As for the Israelis, for those who live there, it’s their home, for many going back three generations. In many cases those ancestors took it it legally under ottoman law. I find that 24-undisputed-hour-rule questionable myself, but your story doesn’t hold up legally in many cases, nor historical. Everyone’s ancestors lived someplace. That doesn’t automatically make that place theirs.
Pointing to an old map and claiming the territory that another currently occupies never leads to peace.
ok then look at the demographic between 1917~1948, you will see how the land was not bought but stolen, not from the ottomans but the british.
when you illegally occupy a land long enough, it does not make the occupation go away. its still an occupied territory.
Oh really? Then we’d have war everywhere. There is no place on earth that was not at some point taken by force by this or that group of people.
Ok, so before 1918, the Ottomans had that piece of land for about 400 years. I guess that makes a turkish claim is older, and therefore stronger, by your logic, am I right?
Before that there was the Mamluks for 200 years, but that doesn’t seem an ethnicity that’s notable today, so let’s forget that.
Before that, the cruzaders had that land for 200 years, I suppose that means Europe also has an older claim.
Before that, Arabs for 400 years, so I see we’re back to their claim.
But hold on, before that, it was Roman territory for a whopping 700 years. That’s notable. Italia has a really good claim, I’d say.
But even before, there were the Jews there, and for close to a thousand years. So, following your logic the state Israel has all right to be there.
Before that there also lived people, of course, but it’s hard to pinpoint those to ethnicity. Egypt was there shortly. That’s an older claim even, but not very long.
Hmm. Are now all those people justified in killing innocents on some grounds that hasn’t been “theirs” for generations?
no, the ottomans were the occupiers, so thats just not my logic.
and the same goes for the rest.
this discussion turned into a loop, so i guess good day to you.
Ok, I guess then there is no logic to understand. I'll stop trying. Have a good day.
Yes both sides are targeting innocent civilians, and this is not cool.
But only one side is colonising a people’s land, imprisoning them in ghettos, and destroying their future.
Hence why criticism of Israel should always be greater
Hamas knows this. And they knew that Israel would respond with disproportionate force. They only care about destroying Israel and the Jews, per their charter, and they aren’t afraid to sacrifice as many Palestinian lives as it takes.
Maybe Russia got Iran to get Hamas to attack Israel knowing that Israel would go full scale, knowing that the USA is all in on Israeli support, thus reducing their aid to Ukraine?
Ok then let's send better weapons to Hamas. I am sure they will be happy to precise target and hit all military installations. It's kind of sad to see privileged people pointing out how someone else is supposed to fight the boot on their throat.
Yup. The meme and simple “everyone is bad” explanation doesn’t touch on the fact that this is an asymmetrical war.