this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2024

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How do you make someone understand that being drafted by force and ordered to invade another country is not a good thing? (sh.itjust.works)

submitted 3 months ago by index@sh.itjust.works to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

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[–] xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 59 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

The issue, from what I can tell, is that the question you've asked here doesn't match the argument you just had in comments of a post about about the Ukraine war. The argument you were trying to make is not "war bad", but specifically that Ukraine's counteroffensive is bad. You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine rather than leaving them to "defend themselves".

There's a few important details that such an argument (intentionally) ignores.

This invasion was not a choice between war or no war. It was simply a decision between locations that battles take place. It is entirely legitimate for Ukraine to pursue a counteroffensive strategy into russian territory if it believes it to be a more effective military strategy than defensive attritional warfare within their own borders.
The fact that combat is taking place in Russian territory doesn't change the fact that the war itself is a defensive war against an aggressor with overtly territorial/imperialist goals.
As far as I am aware, the units involved in the counteroffensive are exclusively non-drafted volunteer units.
Cessation of funding to Ukraine would lead to their imminent loss. The fact that they have been able to innovate cheaper strategies like domestic drone usage doesn't change the fact that war is extremely expensive and technology dependent, and their economy is dwarfed by that of Russia's.

The combination of your proposals that Ukraine should not proactively fight back, and that they should lose access to the resources that would allow them to continue to defend their territory end us meaning that Ukraine would not be able to effectively defend itself.

From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be "how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good", to which the answer is "oh fuck off mate"

[+] index@sh.itjust.works -31 points 3 months ago (2 children)

The question asked in the thread title is really simple and you should try to stay on topic.

The argument you were trying to make is not “war bad”, but specifically that Ukraine’s counteroffensive is bad.

You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine

You are twisting what i've said. I encourage you to read other people post better because i never made such claim.

From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be “how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good”, to which the answer is “oh fuck off mate”

If you believe that not being drafted by force and ordered to invade another country is the equivalent of rolling over and dying you are probably victim of the propaganda. As other have suggested here i advise you to watch drones videos from this war where they roll over and die

[–] xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Let's go look at your comment history and check, shall we?

Defending yourself and launching invasions or orchestrating soldiers are two different things

It's not defending yourself if you have an army! What a great take 👍

it sounds like the government is giving out plans and commanding the army. The government of ukraine and people from ukraine are two different things. When people ask what's the alternative to send billions to the ukrainian government what they need to understand is that people can defend themself even without an authority on top of them playing war games with soldiers and possibly forcing conscript to go on missions

Oh, why did Ukraine never consider magically winning the war by sheer willpower instead of this "having an army" nonsense, smart!

I'm not twisting anything. Context matters, and the context of your post was you throwing a tantrum after around 10 different Lemmy users calling out your bad takes.

If you believe not being drafted blah blah blah

That's not what I said at all, mere moments after you accused me of "twisting" what you said. What I said, louder for the people in the back is BEING UNABLE TO FIGHT BACK IN THE ENEMY'S TERRITORY, BEING DISALLOWED TO RECEIVE FOREIGN AID AND BEING DISALLOWED TO FORM AN ACTUAL ARMY is the equivalent of rolling over and dying.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The "invasion" of Russia isn't an invasion though. They have no desire (and no capability) to actually take land.

It's a war Russia started by invading Ukraine. Of fucking course it's reasonable to expect Ukraine to counterattack.

You can't simply hit someone unprovoked and then get mad when they hit back.

Or course drafting is controversial but it's much less so when the purpose is to protect your country and home compared to what Russia is doing with their drafts where the only purpose is to kill and invade Ukraine.

If Russia surrendered with reasonable terms, Ukraine would obviously exit Russia. They have no desire to keep it.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works -3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

The “invasion” of Russia isn’t an invasion though. They have no desire (and no capability) to actually take land.

Russia propaganda be saying the same thing, for them it's a "special operation" and not an invasion. The conversation you are replying to makes reference to another thread in which "orders to invade russia" were mentioned.

Or course drafting is controversial but it’s much less so when the purpose is to protect your country and home compared to what Russia is doing with their drafts where the only purpose is to kill and invade Ukraine.

So let me ask you something: if you were born in russia and kazakistan declares war to russia would you be fine with you and your friends be drafted by force and sent to the front fighting under the command of putin and its mobsters? Perhaps not everyone is willing to die burned alive in a trench, be it for the russian or ukrainian government.

If Russia surrendered with reasonable terms, Ukraine would obviously exit Russia. They have no desire to keep it.

Ukrainian people perhaps no. Worldwide governments seem to have an interest in this war because they are doing everything to fuel it.

[–] rdri@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Worldwide governments seem to have an interest in this war because they are doing everything to fuel it.

Bingo. This nullifies your credibility. Either you're a troll or an idiot.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Bingo. This nullifies your credibility. Either you’re a troll or an idiot.

That's simply what is happening look around you. Rulers and politicians profits in war, the military industry is booming, the cash is flowing. You think the really same people aiding israel in its genocide gives a fuck about peasants dying in a war?

https://www.rbth.com/defence/2016/01/25/russia-continues-to-buy-iveco-lmv-armored-cars-from-italy_562027

[–] rdri@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Companies mentioned in an article you linked aren't getting the cash flow enough to warrant any improvement in related economies. I see Russian politicians profiting off various things during war but they were doing the same before.

So, short effects of the war on economies are not worth the long term effects of deaths of many consumers anywhere. Using the "war helps economy" argument while forgetting how the deaths and active aggression affect the world and lives, is a manipulation, which is also heavily used by those aggressors (Russia).

Telling Israel is doing a genocide without mentioning what hamas were doing to Israel is also a manipulation.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I would never be fine with fighting for a tyrannical country like Russia. I would absolutely fight Russia if they invaded my home and we somehow managed to counterattack on Russian territory.

Ukraine is a way better country than Russia, of course the majority of its people want to stay Ukrainian. And no I'm not saying Ukraine is perfect, it's just better than Russia.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works -2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The government of ukraine and its politicians don't seem too different from these or russia, germany, france, italy or usa. In all these countries climate activists gets beaten and civil protests get repressed. All these countries support israel in its genocide and sell weapons to saudi arabia. In a way or another they are all tyrannical and not worth die burned alive in a trench for.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Really? You really think that Russian politicians (aka Putin since Russia isn't a democracy) are comparable to western nations?

Russia is one of the worst places to live in when it comes to rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of press. Western nations aren't perfect but they aren't Russia bad. Look at pretty much any metric except land area, and you will see that Russia fucking sucks to live in.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works -2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Really? You really think that Russian politicians (aka Putin since Russia isn’t a democracy) are comparable to western nations?

Yes don't you?

former pm of italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi

former pm of usa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump

Russia is one of the worst places to live in when it comes to rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of press.

I would say saudi arabia it's worst

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_States%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_arms_deal

[–] VelvetStorm@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Hey bud, they didn't say Russia was the worst. They said it was one of the worst. Ask dam near anyone not in Russia or China or NK and they will agree Trump is a garbage human and a garbage leader. We know this. This isn't up for discussion. Russia has had a shit government for like its entire history.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Do I need to link the Wikipedia page for Putin or do you get my point anyways?

I would say saudi arabia it's worst

I'm not sure who I think is the worst but I would never want to live in either country but I'm not sure why you linked to some arms deal when Saudi Arabia has done way worse things than buying some weapons. I'm leaning towards Russia being the worst though.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Would you be fine with your country and its government selling weapons to putin? I don't know where you are from but there's a good chance your government sells weapon to saudi arabia or israel.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago

That's very possible but I don't see how that's relevant.